Joe Frazier is unproven

The Quarry that fought Frazier in 1969 absolutely would have taken Norton.

 

While he never beat anyone with the power of Foreman and Shavers, I'm not at all sure that Bonavena and Ramos were lighter hitters than Lyle and MacFoster.

Quarry and Chuvalo were respectable punchers also and they didn't trouble Joe.

 

What a dumb ass take.

 

More "Revisionist" BS from people who weren't even around then...

 

Agree. Some of his foes were harder punchers than given credit.

Didn´t Quarry knockout big punchers in Shavers and Foster. Supposedly he knocked Norton out cold in sparring and certainly hurt him in their fight.

Ellis put down Bonavena twice, hurt Leotis Martin and had Shavers badly stunned before walking to a terrific uppercut.

Chuvalo knocked out Quarry, Manuel Ramos+Doug Jones.

Doug Jones stopped Zora Folley, young Bob Fostaer and got Ali´s attention in the 1st round with a good right hand.

Ron Stander koed Shavers.

Even Floyd Cummings nearly koed future champ Frank Bruno!

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Seems like a quality over quantity conversation.

 

Misleadin tidal but op got sum reasonable points honestly

 

You can say that Frazier is over-rated. You can say that he was the least gifted of his contemporaries. But you cannot say that a fighter with his record was unproven.

 

Can't come up with a lame fantasy fight for the day so you slam Smokin' Joe? C'mon man

 

Ducked nobody. Like Marciano and Carnera (who defended against guys who beat the guy who dethroned Primo), he took on who was available. (So did Dempsey. Jack gets slammed for never defending against Wills, but he doesn't get called out for ducking anybody else. Miske II, Brennan II, Tommy Gibbons and Firpo were good results and his reign from 1920 to 1923 was reasonable activity by the standards of that era. Nobody else ever stopped Miske, Brennan twice, he dropped Firpo nine times in two rounds, repeatedly ripping the 6'3" 216 pound Argentinian up off his feet in the process, a situation Tyson called him an animal for. Tommy Gibbons gave him his Championship Distance cachet. Of course beating Wills and Greb would've added nothing to Dempsey's historical legacy.)

Regarding chin. Joe Bugner in "The Best I Faced," rated Frazier's chin above that of all other opponents. (He also acknowledged Shavers to indeed be the hardest puncher.)

Frank Bruno barely avoided a one punch ten count loss to Jumbo, somebody Frazier took several of those same bombs from. Against anybody not named Foreman, he pretty good in the chin department, not getting staggered between Bonavena I and Foreman I.

Joe filled successfully filled the vacuum between Ali's exile and Foreman I with Mathis, Ramos, Bonavena II, Ziggy, Jerry Quarry I, Ellis I, Bob Foster, the FOTC, then defended all claims against then 29 (25) - 4 - 1 Terry Daniels (a mismatch, but Daniels did solidly land his right uppercut Sunday Punch to no effect) and finally Stander (in a situation where Ron actually did not take a backwards step, but beating Frazier wasn't as simple as being physically stronger, like Chuvalo previously discovered).

Winning ten consecutive Championship fights in that situation, with two over the Championship Distance, makes him a top five ATG HW in my book. He's clearly the GOAT infighting HW Champion. Tommy Gibbons smothered away Dempsey's punching room, as Godoy did to Louis and Charles did to Marciano, but NOBODY did this to Frazier.

In Bonavena II, he defended against his toughest opponent to that time. His second match was a nontitle affair against his arch nemesis. He rematched another hard former opponent in Jerry. Then, with no title on the line, he did something no one else attempted. He climbed back in the ring with Foreman.

He defeated Bugner in a war that was Bugner's greatest career performance.


Aside from Foreman, top shelf punchers simply couldn't earn their way to him. Joe was very friendly and encouraging to Lyle on camera prior to the FOTC, but there was no way Ron was going to get to him in time with Jerry Quarry in the way. Ditto for Earnie Shavers. In fact, it was Frazier himself who eventually blocked Jerry from having a chance to get to Foreman, but in their rematch, Joe dominated the guy who got the best of Mac Foster, Lyle and Shavers.

Concerning Bob Foster, he was the same height and weight as the guy who had just destroyed Ken Norton, Jose Luis Garcia. Defending against a reigning ATG LHW Champion had tradition to it. Harold Johnson was going to take on Liston had he gotten past Pastrano and Jose Torres wanted a HW Title shot after dethroning Willie, who himself had been a top ten or even top five HW during Marciano's reign. Rocky did defend against Archie Moore, who then lost his bid for Marciano's vacated title against Patterson.

So what more could Frazier have done with an arduous training regimen, severely mounting arthritis and blood presssure issues that limited him to two outings a year after 1968?


YES, I regard Bob Foster as an elite fighter along with Ali. From 1961 to 1978, NOBODY crushed Bob like that, including some damned fine HWs. Doug Jones would knock out Folley in seven his next time out, then give Cassius Clay hell in Ring's FOTC, go the Championship Distance in a bid for the WBA Title stripped from Ali, and halt Kirkmam in seven for his penultimate win, Boone's only defeat prior to Foreman. Bob Foster's only defeats to HWs prior to Frazier were Jones, Terrell and Folley. You have to go back to Joe Louis-John Henry Louis to find a LHW Champion destroyed in a HW Title challenge like that. (Louis-Lewis is a ridiculously underrated win by the Bomber BTW.) Charles defended against Lesnevich and Maxim, Louis against Conn 2X as well as Lewis, some thought Loughran had done enough to dethrone Carnera, Carp pulled a one million dollar gate with Dempsey, and the next LWH Champion after Bob Foster to challenge for HW honors was Michael Spinks.

There is only one reason why Bob Foster is not widely considered an elite conquest for Frazier along with Ali, and that's simply because of the manner in which Frazier steamrolled him.


Ramos, Ziggy, Bob Foster and Terry Daniels should trash the myth that Joe Frazier was a slow starter at his peak. (He also knocked the tough Machen out of the ring in their opening stanza.) When it comes to noted HWs starting slowly you can have Norton. (What Ken did to Bobick is one of the wildest anomalies in Norton's career. He sustained tons of opening round knockdowns, especially prior to 1970.)


Nobody was out actually there who could've won an earned title shot at Frazier until after the FOTC, and there's a very strong case that Daniels and Stander EARNED their shots at Frazier much more than Foreman did. (George beat Peralta 2X, Chuvalo and Kirkman. Daniels? Terry did have much better competition in going the distance with Patterson, stopped Big Train Lincoln and decisioned Ramos. Yes, George was undefeated, but Daniels was a reasonable earned easy defense after the FOTC. Stander? Even his wife wisecracked about Ron being a Volkswagon entering the Indy 500, but he had gone the ten round limit seven times, and Ramos 2X, O'Halloran and Spencer supplied good experience over that extended distance Foreman had only gone twice. Stander was then 21-1-1, with only an SD loss and that draw in Ramos I. He hadn't left his home turf though. After the FOTC, it was all about who could pony up the cash to make a defense worthwhile for Joe.


Foreman? His reputation is based more on reputation and presumed potential rather than resume. I consider his best wins during the 1970's to have been after Kinshasa. Obviously the best slugger he beat was Lyle in that legendary war. The most skilled boxer he beat was Dino Denis, who had sprained his ankle the day before they squared off. (That's why John finally engaged George, to Jerry Quarry's bemusement, but a heathy and perfectly trained Denis wasn't beating George anyway. He just didn't have the power to hurt Foreman.)

Prior to George's stunning comeback, he was remembered mainly as a transient Champion, who caught a badly diminished and unmotivated Frazier after the FOTC, then was beaten pretty conclusively in the jungle. (No, it was not a close fight. Ali had it all the way, and the ringside commentators like Frazier saw that and said so live.)


Could Frazier have beaten an absolute top shelf puncher like Mac Foster, Lyle, Shavers or Foreman himself? I consider Joe to have been at his absolute peak for three bouts. Ziggy, Jerry Quarry I, and Ellis I, then he fractured his ankle. Beating Foreman in early 1970 would've been a tremendous challenge, but at 203 pounds, his absolute peak weight, he could've come back, been light enough to move around, deploy angles, side step and maybe drown George in deep water. Frazier utilized movement well with Chuvalo, Stander, in Foreman II and Cummings. He did have a decent if not absolute top shelf chin. (He was decked by Mike Bruce, Foreman eight times in two bouts, and Bonavena 2X in their first match. He was also badly stunned by a second round Ali right in their middle bout. By contrast, Shavers went down just five times during the first 90 bouts of his career, four of those to exhaustion, and one to accumulation from Jerry Quarry. Only Jeff Sims decked him with a single shot, and Earnie got up to win it. Foreman was powered down twice in Lyle's peak performance, and Ali did deck an exhausted George with what was nonetheless no phantom punch, but one which various angles reveal to have been a bomb.)



Tyson has also been widely questioned, but in terms of consolidating all competing title claims, he was the first since Frazier who did this to become THE MAN! Douglas only had to beat Mike, Holyfield only had to beat Douglas, and Bowe only had to beat Holyfield. Likewise, Foreman only had to beat Frazier, Ali only had to beat Foreman, and Leon only had to beat Ali. Frazier and Tyson are clear HOFers for all they did to become UNDISPUTED.

 

Joe’s limited longevity (due to a more wearing style and physical disadvantages) also shouldn’t be held against him.

We have to reasonably take him during the period when he was at his best.

Also, the FOTC was monumentally unique - one of, if not the best, highest quality and most punishing HW fights in boxing history, imo.

That one fight did take a lot out of Joe as reflected thereafter - but Frazier still posted some highly creditable performances. No picnic for anyone (besides GF) having to fight Frazier..and Joe was still destined to give Ali absolute hell again.

 

Bold OP, Cotton.

Unfortunately for your argument, Joe Frazier holds the single greatest win in the history of the division.