Joe Frazier is unproven

Give me a break. I could name a hundred heavies from the past 50 years who were stronger than Jeffries, starting with Hasim Rahman, Oliver McCall, Sonny Liston, Wlad, Haye, Lewis, Bruno...

 

Hasim Rahman for sure he benchpresses well over 400 pounds.

 

Frazier would have worse losses had he fought on farther past his prime like Norton did.

A Frazier-Cooney fight in the early 80s likely ends very poorly for Frazier just like it did Norton.

 

Something like 500lbs according to his S&C coach… might be the strongest HW I can think of, all the good it did him… Toney beat him silly on a diet of sparring and hamburgers.

 

I’m grateful he retired semi reasonably imagine if he ran into Holmes or any of the 80s rat pack… the 80s would’ve been awesome if Frazier was Holmes rival, I’d be so interested to see how he’d do with so many 6ft3 220lbs-ish guys floating around, it was the first era of HWs where they were beginning to get proper monstrous. He’d lose some for sure… but he’d be a mega star of his own era in the way Ali was in the 70s.

 

Superb, superb post, John. Cheers!

 

Not gonna lie, Frazier is my all time favorite so I was gonna let him have that one.

 

I’m not seeing your point?

Even taking away his losses to Cooney, and Shavers, Norton’s record is still inferior to Frazier’s.

 

Is there ever a point ?

 

Silly me.

 

Respectfully disagree about Ali, Good Sir.

This is because Muhammad rushed into the FOTC after only two bouts, ahead of an anticipated antagonistic Supreme Court ruling against him. (They shockingly then went in his favor, 9-0. If that ruling had occurred prior to the FOTC, then in my estimation, with the additional competitive preparation Ali could've then afforded himself, he'd much more likely would've won the FOTC.)

For me, Ali's best performance between 1967 and 1974 was the Jerry Quarry rematch in 1972. Granted, Jerry was completely psyched out by seeing brother Mike nearly decapitated by Bob Foster, and for all JQ knew, his brother might have collapsed and died while he was facing the GOAT during their main event.

However, even if Mike had gone the distance with BF, or even had lost in a way where no alarming ending had taken place, Muhammad was trained and had competed to the sharpest possible edge possible at that moment in time, off of his UD 12 in Chuvalo II. (Jerry was also ready, after UD 10 over the 6'4" jabbing stylist Larry Middleton six and a half weeks earlier.)

Unfortunately for Jerry (as well as Ali's British opponents), Muhammad didn't take them lightly (as least after Cooper I in 1963), and always trained very hard for these bouts. Ali respected JQ tremendously, an opponent who actually began amateur competition before Muhammad himself did and had about 100 more three round bouts before starting punch for pay. (If Jerry had remained amateur long enough for Mexico City, the far less experienced teenaged Foreman would've had a hard time even qualifying for those Olympics.)


Frequent Ali eyewitness Harry Carpenter (a friend of Muhammad's) wrote in 1975's coffee table book "Boxing: A Pictorial History" (for which a newly re-crowned Ali wrote the forward) that Muhammad actually dug down to regain the speed of his mid 1960's career in the first rematch with Frazier to commence 1974. (I do look for signs of this, although videotape isn't what eyewitness viewing from the 1960's to 1970's would be, but's it's obvious his jab-jab-cross in round two resulted in what was by far his most devastating single punch in their trilogy, following Norton rematch with the sixth round bomb he made Kenny wobble drunk with at 50 seconds left. (Consensus there is that mid 1960's Ali would've gone for the kill on Norton there. In Frazier II however, Muhammad was setting himself up with Joe on the ropes exactly as Ali did when finishing Brian London off with that 12 punch shoeshine cloaking the tenth punch killer when notoriously incompetent referee Tony Perez prematurely stepped in. Frazier wouldn't have been knocked out or even decked by the blistering barrage Muhammad was about to unleash, but it might've inflicted facial damage akin later in their bout to what actually happened in Manila.)


To me, Ali's best 1970's performances condition wise, preparation wise, performance wise and potential wise, were in order:


1) Kinshasa

Actually not a hard fight for a supremely conditioned Ali who was in peak condition long before Foreman got his weight down, and Muhammad was coming off the hard training competition and training with Norton II, 12 rounds of staying busy with Lubbers, and Frazier II. Viewing the longer distance footage, you can sometimes only tell George has been hit by his reaction to the impacts of Ali's rights off of LOOSE ropes! His hand speed was unworldly in this one.

2) Frazier II

Where he badly hurt Joe near the end of the second round, but was then robbed by Perez of what would've been his most electrifying combination of his second career, an outburst instant which would've made everybody forget he was no longer back in the 1960's. I trust Harry Carpenter's account that this was the match where he gained his 1960's speed, and he hurt nobody else in the 1970's as early as he jigged his greatest rival in the second round.

3) Jerry Quarry II (For me, easily his best performance between Folley and Frazier II, however psyched out JQ was. BTW, Jerry, not Muhammad, should've been matched with Bob Foster later that year in Stateline, Nevada if BF still wanted to try the heavyweights. THAT would've been an easy promotion!)

4) Dunn

Yes, that's right! He could've wiped out southpaw Richard as quickly as a highly aroused Bugner next did, but Muhammad stuck to his prefight prediction of a fifth round knockout in Munich, three months after Coopman and only six weeks after the dismal showing against Young.

True, he was a sluggish 230 for Jimmy, but it was still over the Championship Distance, then he quickly whipped himself down to 220 pounds, over four less than he was at Manila, and showed that Manila had taken absolutely nothing away from him if he got himself back into peak condition - for me, he diminished when Inoki took away his legs in Tokyo, then again drastically and fatally after taking all those permanently brain damaging shots from Shavers which ruined his timing and fine muscle coordination forever. But with Dunn, his right lead was a dart, shooting in and out, as Richard repeatedly went down as fast as Ali struck so fast it was hard to see his fist on his target's face. (In fact, I've never seen a still photograph of Muhammad's fist in direct contact with Richard's face. There were plenty of those shots in Manila, where Ali's fist was planted on Frazier's head.

Don't let Cosell's post Ali career dramatic narrative do your thinking for you. The Muhammad of the Dunn fight wins Manila more quickly. Larry Holmes was actually in the ring with the guy and knew him better than Howard. He's said for the camera that it was Earnie who actually ruined Ali, that Shavers was Muhammad's true Manila.

5) Manila.

Howard Cosell noted four days before via satellite from Manila on his short lived ABC variety show "Saturday Night Live," that Ali still had a bit of a paunch, but Muhammad cheerfully dismissed it. Ali was at 224 for all of his bouts during an extraordinary 1975 Championship Defense campaign, and if his training wasn't absolutely top rate, nor did he ever have a weight issue this year with his frequency of bouts, and couldn't have been more competition ready.

Everyone who bets on race horses knows it's not about how well they are trained, but whether or not they've been raced into competition readiness and whether or not they are rusty from lack of recent racing. Same principal applies to boxers. It's just that for Dunn, he was better trained than he was for Manila, although he'd recently competed over the Championship Distance in both instances.

In Manila, Ali generated a volume of hard punches he'd never suspected himself capable of. Carlos Padilla made his name as a referee by repeatedly slapping his gloves off the back of Frazier's neck, allowing Joe to fight and forcing Muhammad to punch instead of resting by clinching and trying to wear Frazier down, making for the GOAT HW war. This time, an albeit past prime Joe had no excuses. Ali didn't run, and he didn't clutch and grab. 1969 - FOTC Frazier might've won Manila, but that's no sure thing with how much stronger Muhammad was with the power punch rate he pulled out of himself.


My sixth is Norton II, where he combined his legs with his power, although his hand speed was not yet second career optimal in 1973. By sticking, moving and ducking Ken's overhand right (something Ali was completely unprepared to do in their first match) over the first several rounds, he got off to the early lead as he also proved to Norton something Ken didn't experience in San Diego. In Inglewood, he learned he simply couldn't walk through Muhammad's punches, that Ali could indeed hurt him by driving through shots up from his much more powerful legs. (Yeah, Kenny had that muscular upper body, but Muhammad's legs were like steel bands, especially after over two decades of amateur and professional competition.)

Round four, Ali's hook knocks Norton back a couple steps, and that hook and jab causes a mouse to form under Norton's right eye in round six. (This in itself is notable, because Ken wasn't prone to facial swelling like Frazier and Foreman.) It was also in that round that Ali's right to the left side of his head made Norton wobble drunkenly.


FOTC is seventh for Ali in the 1970's for me. Considering how quickly Muhammad rushed into this one, it's remarkable to me that he did as well as he did. It still wasn't as good a performance by him as it would've been after the Supreme Court handed down their decision on June 28, 1971. (Ali then resumed his career against Jimmy Ellis a month later, facing Blin and Mathis before 1971 was out. Frazier returned against easy touch Daniels in January 1972, then Stander in May, but the fire was obviously out, and he admitted it was about the money now, whoever could put up the funds to make it worth his while to train and enter the ring. If he'd repelled Foreman's challenge as most favored him to, Ali eventually would've dethroned him, as Muhammad would've been able to supply Frazier's best payday as a return title challenger.)

 

I doubt Ali had trained much, since as I just mentioned, it was barely a month after the Supreme Court had unexpectedly green lit the resumption of Muhammad's career.

 

I don't think it's certain that Norton doesn't have more losses if he faces as deep an opponent list as Frazier did.

 

Superb info. IMO, you just have to watch Manila to understand that it wasnt a normal fight. Also the 10 fights that Ali had after it were the worst of his carrer by far.

 

Cheers Clint!