Joe Frazier KO 2 Manuel Ramos 1968

I see Joe beating all of them. Joe made you do things you didn't want to do. That kinda pressure just broke people

 

Frazier would probably beat them all. Liston at that time was very old and I don`t think he could handle the heat Joe brought. In his prime I would favor Sonny. Shavers? Eh...even if he caught Joe I don`t think he could keep Joe down. At the end of the day Frazier would be standing over Ernie Shavers.

 

nice clip. That punch almost took him off his feet, kinda like the one he took from Foreman. Joe is just relentless though! If Joe got up 7 or 8 times against Foreman, then nobody is keeping him down.

 

Great brawl. Gotta give Ramos credit, he kept winging those hooks even though he knew he was getting hooked by Joe in return.

 

What did Frazier weigh in for this bout? He would be a cruiser today, correct?

 

No he was about 205 in his prime. That is heavyweight

 

Liston is the only one of those I see as a big obstacle for Joe. In fact, I think Liston beats him prime for prime, but not in the late 60's.

Lyle was big and strong and had good punch, but he didn't have that really devastating power. I think Joe has some tough moments early on, like he had against Ramos, but eventually gets into his rhythm and takes him out. Even mid 70's Frazier, if he's in shape (which wasn't always the case during that time).

Shavers was such a tremendous puncher that he would always be dangerous for someone who was as hittable as Joe in the first round. Who didn't land a good punch on Frazier in the first? But since Shavers wasn't much of a finisher I think Joe gets through this as well and takes him out.

Norton was Joe's sparring partner, so I'd guess that Joe could handle his punches. Norton also wasn't a puncher in the league of the guys below. Not too far from Lyle perhaps, though. Frazier KO.

MacFoster and Martin I don't know too well, but nothing MacFoster achieved suggests he'd be a problem for Joe and Liston was old when Martin got to him. My money would be on Frazier.

 

In hind sight, only losing to Foreman and Ali does speak wonders for Joe and is still a H2H force to be reckoned with, especially considering the loses came after the FOTC, a fight he'd never be the same again after. If we simply rated fighters on just one performance he might well be the GOAT.

 

Frazier beats them all.

An interesting bit of trivia is that Leotis Martin got a little bit of press claiming Frazier was ducking him in the late 60s. It wasnt true of course, Martin had been kind of an in and outer with no reputation until he stopped Liston. When he stopped Liston he jumped up in the ratings and really began to holler for a shot at Frazier. But not long before he had dropped Yank Durham as his trainer and Yank was livid. He swore up and down that he would never work with Martin in any capacity again. When Martin beat Liston and actually had the momentum to challenge Frazier Durham was true to his word and refused saying Martin wasnt going to earn a dime with Frazier. The point became moot when Martin showed up for his follow up medical exam to see if his eye had improved and failed resulting his license being revoked indefinately.

 

Damn...i wonder if Yank made s call about his eye. There is corruption everywhere. Sounds to me like Yank Durham pulled JR Ewing on Martin's career. Revenge best served cold.
I have no evidence of this but the timing is suspect.

 

Nah, blind one eye is blind in one eye and by that time the commissions were cracking down on stuff like that. Too much liability. Gypsy Joe Harris had a similarly strained relationship with Yank and he actually accused Yank of setting the commission on him and getting his license revoked but it was conclusively proven later that much of what Gypsy Joe had said about memorizing the eye chart to pass the test etc was bull****. His conspiracy theories were simply those of a broken man looking to blame someone for the path his life had taken. In reality Gypsy Joe wasnt totally blind in his right eye at the beginning of his career. The commission had been aware that he had eye trouble but they actually referred him to a specialist to get the specialists opinion on whether he should be allowed to box in late 1966 and the specialist cleared him stating that while his vision was impaired in the eye (20/50) it was not impaired enough to deprive a man of his right to earn a living. Over the next two years the eye's condition deteriorated to the point where the commission could no longer ignore it. Yancey was a tough, no nonsense businessman but I think he was basically fair. The biggest complaint against him by most of his fighters was that he devoted too much time to Frazier and not enough time to the rest of his stable but thats pretty understandable. Frazier was making the most money out of all of them by far and he was the easiest to handle. If you turned him loose in a gym the guy would work like a plow horse. Gypsy Joe was a winner but you couldnt get him to train, show up in shape, or even show up to weigh ins and physicals. He was a pain in the ass. Briscoe and Martin were in and outers, more local clubfighters in the mid/late 60s than stars so its no wonder why he didnt devote as much time to them as Frazier. Harris was an earner and he had recently resigned a contract with Durham and Reddish so, despite his stories that Yank and Willie had spiked his career because he was leaving them that just doesnt pass the smell test. Harris was just looking to blame someone. Yank wasnt going to hold your hand and he wasnt going to waste his time with you if you werent going to put the effort into your career and training that a professional fighter needed but he also wasnt going to ruin the second biggest earner in Philly while he had a legally binding contract on him. As for Martin Yank didnt need to spike his career to hurt him. He controlled the championship. He could just freeze Martin out from making a big payday and its not like he had anything to fear from Martin in the ring. He knew him and his limitations as well as anyone. Nobody that lost to Roger Russell was going to beat Joe Frazier.

 

I was being a bit factious. I did read about the Gypsy Joe situation in Ghosts of Manila.

 

Didn't Martin replace Frazer for the WBA tournament, which Frazier declined? The tournament was a great idea to produce one champion. Frazier declined the invitation and fought for the " NY State title " instead.

While Frazier's people hinted they did not want to fight Liston, I think there was some buzz for Martin vs. Frazier. As Howard Cosell put it, two Philadelphia fighters would make for one heck of a fight.

Judging by Frazier's career choices to steer clear of punchers unless there was a title on the line post-Forman 1, I think there is more to it.

I'm pretty sure Yank Durham wanted Frazier to retire far sooner than he did.

IMO, Frazier losses to Norton, and Lyle post-Foreman and beats Mac Foster and Martin ( if he was still boxing ). Shavers vs. Frazier could go either way.

 

Ramos wasn't very good. He was 20-6 -2 beating nobodies and losing & drawing to nobodies. Post Frazier he became raw meat and ended up with a losing record. He does manage to sting Frazier early.