Joe Frazier - No Ring Smarts?

Ted what happened to all that fancy speech you used to use when you arrived at ESB?

Just wondering

I always classified Joe as strictly an infighter. Joe was devestating against Ron Stander in 72, just two months before.

Not much versatility and yet he won a gold medal

 

Frazier met Foreman possibly the hardest puncher in the history of the heavyweight division.

He fought Ali who KO'd Liston, Foreman, Moore and Bonavena (he was featherfisted after all)

He fought Quarry twice who was a dangerous puncher.

Bonavena twice who could punch and Bob Foster who although a light heavy is p4p one of the hardest hitters of all time. So although Frazier only fought one MONSTER puncher he was never KO'd by the likes of Fireman Jim Flynn (ATG puncher though Flynn was)

Since i've been on this board i've seen you consistently right off Joe Frazier and his achievements, but talk up Dempseys win over Willard... why don't you raise the Firpo fight if you want evidence of how that brawler would have fared against Foreman.

All in all try and be objective, it would seem your in the minority :good

 

Bonavena was a decent clubbing puncher, nothing sensational ,he floored Frazier twice.
Foster NEVER dropped a rated heavyweight.
What has JIm Flynn to do with this discussion?
I dont think I have talked up Dempsey's win particularly, in another thread I have just made, Wlad v Willard I referred to Willard being fat and inactive when he fought Dempsey.
This thread is about Frazier's ring smarts,or lack of them. I contend he was a one dimensional fighter. If you believe Frazier was more multi faceted as a fighter than Dempsey, that is your right, I would not agree with you ,but that doesn't matter, the thread is about Frazier,not Frazier compared to Dempsey.
If I am in the minority I doubt it will worry me unduly. Because I don't happen to agree with you does not mean I am not objective.

 

good point, this was a good win for frazier here but it wasnt the last time he fought someone his own size. his next fight was with ellis. I agree there was more to frazier. To be sucsesful in boxing you need to understand how it works and concentrate on your strengths, working out how to land your best shot against a difrent guy, spotting the openeing and pulling the trigger, timing a bodyshot when the oponent takes a deep breath etc. agresive fighters are aware of this.

exactly. frazier knew how to make room for his left hook, if a guy pushed forward he still knew where his feet needed to be in relation to the other guy so he could pull the trigger. he did this with chuvalo also. mathis was bigger than foreman his reach was comparable only george timed fraziers head movement to catch him. mathis didnt push him off balance. foreman was a step up in talent and joes first test since the wear and tear he endured against ali. frazier was not the same guy.



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I think Frazier's "lack of ring smarts" only actually cost him one fight - against Foreman, in Jamaica 1973 - and it's unlikely he would have won that one anyway.

He definitely fought a dumb fight there though.

 

I think Dempsey would have at least tried to do what he did with Willard, ie. move, circle, keep away, keeping up on his toes, until he sees the opening - rather than just bore straight in to Foreman like he's on tracks, trying to walk through punches and out-fight on pure stubborness.

 

Highlighted in green is probably what you can boil all of this down to. Love Frazier, but that's the deal. It wasn't that he didn't have ring smarts, it's that he knew how to stick to what he did best and usually didn't want to gamble on anything else, I think .This is the package he comes in. He's a master of one trade and a jack of not too many others. He had an identity and he knew how to stick to it and it would've been enough against nearly anyone. This is true of a lot of all-time greats.

 

Frazier HAD THE OLYMPIC PEDIGREE but remember he only had 26 fights when going for Ali 1 and was not in the same condition when he fought Foreman and it was visible on his body. Frazier was not the same ripped fighter for Stander,Daniels or Foreman. Swarmers are the toughest style because you need to have supreme condition at all times. Armstrong had a longer prime because he was extremely conditioned and active. Frazier was also staggered by fighters like Manuel Ramos and Bonavena and was not as much of a defensive fighter as Marciano and because of his reliance on the left hook was less full of surprises. You knew Frazier was coming at you with the hook and he popped the right to the body a lot but he was virtually a one-handed fighter. Frazier was one of the best left-hookers in the heavyweight division but you need 2 hands at the top to beat the best and be dominant with your style. Frazier beat Quarry,Bonavena,Ellis and Ali with mainly the left hook. There was a genius in his gift but half the battle is won from the start with a one handed fighter

 

At 6'1," Jimmy had a 76" reach. It can be argued that they were relatively equal in size, but Ellis had enough of an advantage in height and reach that Joe should utilize his characteristic approach to dealing with him, going low and under. With Jerry, he could clearly attempt to match height and reach though.