Joe Frazier Quote...thoughts

I don't think Ali vs Marciano would be a mismatch at all. Marciano would cause Ali problems much the same as Frazier did, Marciano also hit harder than Frazier and had very underrated hand speed, as well as great work rate and exceptional stamina. I think Ali would most likely win a decision, however, I wouldn't rule out an upset.

I can't see Ali being able to knockout Louis. Louis would arguably be the toughest opponent Ali had ever faced. This match could also go either way. I don't see a knockout for either man, although in Louis, Ali would be facing the greatest combination puncher in heavyweight history. This coupled with Louis's short, powerful, accurate and economical punches means Louis would have the greater chance of achieving a KO despite Ali's great chin. However, I would say It would end up going to the cards.

 

That's too cursory an explanation and is not an apt comparison overall, I think. One mustn't simply equate the results Frazier gleaned from the first fight to that of a potential fantasy fight with a similar pressure-oriented fighter

For starters, while Frazier and Marciano are both categorically classified as swarmers, Rocky approached his opponent leaning back; Frazier bulled his way in bowing down. Ali had to resort to methods he was unfamiliar to and ineffective with against Smokin' Joe in the first fight; he was hooking with a good left hooker and throwing lazy right uppercuts. Ali would face no such difficulty with Marciano because he would be open for the straight shots all night.

Secondly, I can hardly imagine a stubby-armed Rocky connecting consistently with his Susie Q especially with Ali pulling back like he always did. It's not really a match for an explosive, looping left hook, in this case at least.

Lastly, the Ali that Frazier defeated is not be the Ali that Marciano will be up against.

Yes, Marciano wouldn't be completely blown out of the water. It is quite incredible how people continually undervalue his skills as a fighter, I agree. But the result is set in stone for me.

 

I wasn't simply using the results of the first Frazier-Ali fight to come to my conclusion. I was using Frazier as legitimate example of a fighter with sufficient similarities to Marciano in order to make my point that Marciano's chances against Ali cannot be dismissed. I recognise the differences between Marciano and Frazier. Frazier came in bobbing and weaving and looking to cut off the ring. Marciano was not a walking punch bag like most people think, he would crouch low to evade shots. He was a two handed puncher who had a better chin than Frazier and possibly even more stamina.

I pick Ali to beat Marciano but not by much. Ali would not beat Marciano in a decisive fashion.

 

I agree with the predicted outcome, but I imagine a completely different fight than you propose. You and I have good ideas about Marciano's strengths and weaknesses in comparison to Joe Frazier. Yes, he had more strength, stamina and durability than Frazier. However, he would be landing far less than Frazier and at longer intervals. Also, he would be absorbing more punishment since he was more open to the kind of assault that Ali liked to dish out.

 

Yes, I agree with your comment, but I also feel a peak Louis would have beaten a peak Ali. No disrespect intended, but Marciano would not have beaten Frazier, Ali or Louis.

 

I appreciate what you're saying about Ali landing more shots on Marciano than Frazier. However, Marciano was able to withstand and absorb a great deal of punishment and still relentlessly pursue his opponent. I don't see Ali being able to stop Marciano in his tracks. Also, even if Marciano were to land less shots on Ali and at longer intervals (I don't think the difference would be substantial even with his short arms), the shots he'd land would be more powerful and more likely to cause greater damage to Ali.

Like you say our proposed result of this fight is similar, but the intricacies of how we arrive there is where we differ.

 

Marciano had the talent to pull off these wins though. He could smoother Louis as Goodey did in the first fight, and what a green Marciano did to a past it Louis. Marciano learn a lot from Louis to Walcott. I think the Marciano of the Walcott fight or the 2nd LarSarza fight stands a good shot of upsetting Louis.

I think Marciano Fraizer is one of thsos types of fights that can go either way.

I lean with Ali on points. But wont relly be shock if Marciano out swarms Ali, as he did with Charles the first time.

 

The same Joe Frazier that said he won all 3 fights against Ali. His opinion on Ali is driven by hate. Walcott fought both Louis and Marciano and said Ali was the greatest. Archie Moore picked Ali over Marciano and Louis. Chuvalu and Patterson who both fought the 60s version and the 70s version knew who was the better fighter. Even Cus and Torres thought Frazier would've had a far harder time against 60s Ali. Cus thought Ali in 1970 was in bad shape after not fighting in 3 years - said his reflexes were slow, timing was off as the Bonavena fight proved, etc...etc... Ali got good again in 73/4 after having a number of years back in the ring. Look at what the exile did to Tyson. Hard to comeback great after a number of years out. You need fights to keep at the top of your game - reflexes, timing, conditioning can only be improved by fighting. The way Ali fought against a peak Frazier the first time was a tremendous achievement when you take all these factors in to account. This fight was the first time the boxing world found out how well he could take a punch (something he wasn't use to doing) and that he had the heart of a lion to survive and keep on fighting back in that 15th round after that perfect left hook shot that floored him.

 

I have never understood why people see an analogy between Marciano and Frazier. In fact, the analogy is about as wrong as an analogy can be. They had radically different styles from one another. If you want an analogy, Frazier was something of a larger version of Armstrong, and that style always frustrates slick boxers. Marciano was a brawler. Brawlers are made to order for boxers like Ali. One style trouble for Ali, the other style heaven sent. Ali would pick Marciano apart, frustrate his attack, and slash his face to ribbons.

Need I remind you that Max Schmeling knocked a prime Louis out? Ali was a better boxer, he was bigger, and more powerful than Schmeling. Louis typically had trouble with boxers, even when they weighed less than the light heavyweight limit! I can totally see Ali keeping Louis off balance with the jab and movement, dropping him several times with lead right hands, and eventually knocking him out. In fact, thinking about it more, I think the knockout is the likely outcome. Louis never faced anybody close to Ali's calibre. No, Walcott was not analogous to Ali.

 

Early on Marciano was a brawler, but once he held that title, Goldman change his style to swarmer. He swarm LarSarza, Charles, Cockell and Moore.

The 15th round of the first Charles fight, should prove that Marciano was a effected swarmer as he thown over 100 punchings that round, and did let up. He just swarm all over Charles, and Charles had no answer for it.

 

Marciano and Frazier certainly were not radically different, the analogy is a very sound one. Marciano could brawl but he was also a pressure fighter like Frazier (who I might add could also brawl). The differences in their styles is mainly in defence. Frazier would bob and weave, while Marciano would crouch low. Marciano hit harder and hit hard with both hands. Yes Frazier wished he could be like Armstrong (he said so in the Champions Forever documentary) he took on board Armstongs ethos to never stop punching but he was in fact more like Marciano in more ways. Marciano would cause as many problems to Ali as Frazier did. Only Marciano had a better chin, just as relentless an attack, more power and even more stamina. Marciano the best conditioned Heavyweight in history would work Ali hard never stopping and showing no signs of getting tired. Yes he would get hit repeatedly but Ali would not have the power to stop him. Even prime '67 Ali would not have it his own way by any stretch of the imagination, he'd get hit in return and Marciano would have a greater ability to hurt him than Frazier. I see Ali winning on points but it would not a walk in the park.

Max Schmeling had the ability to hit a great deal harder than Ali. Ali would not have the power to drop Louis. Schmeling DID NOT KNOCK OUT PRIME LOUIS. Louis had not yet reached the peak of his powers when he fought Schmeling, as his defensive abilities had yet to be refined.

You grossly underestimate Joe Louis. Louis had great KO power in both hands, hands that were very fast. When moving around the ring he seemed like a plodding type, but he would snap out ferociuos yet economically sound punches with great reflex speed. You say "Louis never faced a fighter close to Ali's calibre", that criticism can be levelled at many ATG's outside of Ali's era as there was only one Ali. Despite Ali's fantastic resume, he didn't face a fighter greater than Joe Louis. I would rank Foreman, Liston and Frazier below Louis. Joe Louis is very likely the most difficult fighter Ali could possibly face, After Ali he was certainly the greatest and is No.1 or 2 on most peoples HW list and for good reason. This fight is 50/50. I wouldn't be surprised if Louis was able to stop Ali, he would be among the very few elite men to possibly stand a chance of doing so.

 

Your argument didn't touch mine, Sweet Scientist, as you continue to hold to the false analogy about Frazier and Marciano. But I do need to correct an assumption you made.

In no way do I underestimate Joe Louis. Joe Louis was awesome. He was a one-man wrecking crew. He was his generation's Tyson (without the chin). If you were a come forward fighter, then you were in grave trouble against Louis.

However, and this is undeniable, if you were a slick or awkward boxer - Schmeling, Farr, Godoy, Conn, Walcott, or Charles - and if you executed your game plan well, then Louis was in for a long night, often on the losing end of that night, even on his knees on the canvas being counted out at the end of the night.

Muhammad Ali was better that any fighter Louis ever faced. He was bigger and stronger than any of the boxers who gave Louis fits. Every fighter is vulnerable to a particular style. For Louis, that style was Muhammad Ali's.

One more thing. Joe Louis was 27-0 when he walked into the ring with Max Schmeling. He was on a streak and blowing everybody's mind. It wouldn't have been so shocking if Louis hadn't been in his prime. But he was and Schmeling exposed Louis the way Douglas exposed Tyson.

Louis did not in the years that followed eliminate the deficiencies in his style that led to his downfall that night. His defense was always weak, especially against the lead right hand, and his chin was a problem.

When you are easy to hit and have a weak beard, then facing talented opposition is always a problem (which is why Louis mostly fought inferior come forward opponents), These deficiencies spell almost certain defeat when facing an opponent like Muhammad Ali.

Given how many times Louis was down in fights, and the fact that he was brutally knocked out in his prime by Schmeling, and given how so many boxers tied him knots, he doesn't stand a realistic chance against a big strong durable boxer of the calibre of Ali.

 

Forgot to say something about this claim that Schmeling was a bigger puncher than Ali. Schmeling's ko percentage was 57%. That's respectable. Ali's was 62%. While that number is not up there with Foreman and Tyson, it's a lot better than Schmeling's. Ali was fighting bigger and better men than Schmeling. Had Schmeling faced Liston, Frazier, and Foreman, his ko percentage would be even lower, because he would be face down on the canvas by the end of the night. Keeping in mind Schmeling's vulnerable chin (he was knocked out several times), he likely would have lost to other big punchers, such as Patterson, Williams, Folley, Lyle, and Shavers, and thus his knockout percentage would be lower still. Ali's 62% ko percentage came against outstanding opposition, opposition of the sort that neither Schmeling nor Louis had to face. You have to take the competition into account when talking about these things. Given everything we know, Louis is in real trouble against Ali.