Joe Frazier Quote...thoughts

:good
I know, joe is a VERY bitter man where ali is concerned.

 

Street Lethal, my argument beats yours into the ground. I am Sweet Science, not Sweet Scientist. The Frazier-Marciano analogy is perfectly viable, although I have already highlighted the particular differences they have in my previous post.

You underestimate Louis's chin. No it wasn't as good as Tyson's but Ali wouldn't be able to knock him out as you claimed in your earlier post.

Louis wasn't in his prime when he faced Schmeling, as I said in my earlier post Louis had not yet reached the peak of his powers when he fought Schmeling, as his defensive abilities had yet to be refined. You say: "Schmeling exposed Louis the way Douglas exposed Tyson." Douglas did not expose Tyson, Mike certainly wasn't at his peak when he fought Douglas, he was in pretty bad shape.

Incorrect again, you're making a habit of this, Louis learned from the 1st Schmeling fight, to keep his hand in position at all times never again being so vulnerable to a big right hand counter.

Bollocks, Louis stands a very good chance against Ali.

 

I'd venture to say Ali got a lot closer than Louis, and that's putting it mildly.

 

I agree, Ali had the very best resume in Heavyweight history.

 

Lethal, this is not about comparing Marciano's style to Frazier's, so much as it is comparing their similar strenghs, mostly in the intangible department. Like: heart, stamina, will to win etc.

The Ali-Frazier fights, when you boil it down, came down to intangibles, not styles. Rocky would have been a stern test for Ali, make no mistake about it.

On topic, I think Frazier truly does believe he beat Ali. According to Joe, all Ali did was hold in their second fight.
Let's look at Joe's mentaility for a second. This man is a fighter, point blank. His feelings towards Ali run pretty dark and deep.

I bet that he doesn't hold much stock in the points verdicts Ali got over him, but what he holds stock in is how he nearly ko'd Ali in the 11th, and how he knocked Ali down in the 15th.
Those instances I think, is what matter to Joe. He had Ali down and almost out. It's a more tangible "victory" than some guy at ringside thinking one or the other guy won on points. In Joe's brutal world, putting a man on his ass - especially you most hated and bitter rival - is worth far more than a points victory.
Joe has also alluded to Ali's present condition as being a result of their fights. He has stated that Ali won the battle, but he won the war. I think the implication is clear here.

 

I couldn't disagree more. Foreman would have wasted Louis. Louis' head is right in the way of Foreman's fists. Liston was Louis' equal offensively, but was a better all around boxer, so Liston was of higher calibre. Louis and Frazier is pick 'em. It depends on who gets there first. Neither had great chins and both could punch. Louis didn't have a lot of head and upperbody movement, unlike Frazier, so I am inclined to go with Frazier here. Larry Holmes would have schooled Louis with his left hand. Louis isn't of Holmes calibre. Several other boxers on Ali's resume, while not equal to or at least surpassing Louis, could spell trouble for Louis. Ron Lyle and Ken Norton come to mind. If Patterson could hit Louis, Louis would be in serious distress. I think Louis handles Williams, Folley, and Shavers, but he would need to be careful not to get hit by them or else it's lullabye land (especially with Williams and Shavers). So while Louis never faced anybody of the calibre of Ali or his top opposition, Ali defintely met opponents of Louis' calibre and beyond.

 

I don't believe Ali's present condition has anything to do with punishment he took in the ring. He has Parkinson's. This is not an uncommon condition. It's not that uncommon for Parkinson's to affect men and women in their late 30s. If you want examples of the brain damage from boxing listen to Meldrick Taylor, Tommy Hearns, and Tony Zale talk.

 

Oh come on. :roll:

 

Don't ever doubt for one second that Schmeling hit harder than Ali.

Nobody who saw him fight did.

 

Joe Frazier was a great fighter, Ali was a great fighter. They were peculiarly blessed to have each other as rivals. Two polar opposite personalities with fighting styles that meshed perfectly in the ring. Without Joe Frazier the Ali legend is diminished. Without Ali Joe would struggle to get a mention on this site. If they had never fought we might even be asking on this site why the 70s was such a dull decade for Heavyweight Champions.

 

I don't care who knocked Schmeling out while he was 19. He only had a dozen amateur fights before he turned profesional anyway.

The only people who knocked him out anywhere close to his peak were Joe Louis and Max Baer. Two of the most dangerous heavyweight punchers who ever drew on a glove.

 

The problem with Frazier's argument, is not so much beating Ali in 71, he did, clearly! It is that Frazier blew his peak unlike a Louis, Marciano or Ali.

Sure Louis had his bum of the month, but at least he was fighting, Ali too fought on average three times a year between 64 and 67, Marciano made six defences in three years...

Frazier had his knockouts, but they were his backing group! For whatever reason Frazier wasted his momentum after Ali in 1971, and got upset by Foreman.

Too many arguments with Durham, too much of living the high life and fame that goes with the Championship and too few top level fights cost Frazier when it comes to being rated with the finest Heavies ever.

Frazier can trump most with his victory over Ali, but to win the game you need a decent hand; and the likes of Daniels and Stander do not cut mustard at this level.

 

Max Baer....There's a man down the street on my block who could knock the head off a mule. Forget all about the fact that he can't box worth a ****. I guess he would have knocked out Schmeling had he drawn on a glove.