So let's say Frazier is 10 years older and turns pro 10 years earlier, so instead of 1964, he turns pro in 1954. His career goes on the same trajectory. Does Frazier become heavyweight champion? Is he knocked off by Sonny Liston? Does he clash with Floyd Patterson? Does he meet Ali in 1964-67? Marciano retires in 1955, so Frazier would still be too green in 1954 and early 1955 to get a shot at Rocky. The way I see it, by 1959-60, both Frazier and Liston would be prime. They both would be the top 2 contenders in the HW division and would both be gunning for Floyd Patterson, the champion. This could bring on a clash between Liston and Frazier to determine who is the rightful challenger to Patterson. Though I suspect that Cus wouldn't be crazy about Patterson fighting Frazier.
You never know. Life is strangely unpredictable, I'm sure you've all noticed. Imagine this: Frazier fights Mike DeJohn on national TV in 1957 and Mike nails him with a left hook and knocks him out in the first minute of round 1. It sounds far-fetched but it really isn't. Joe was a slow starter; Mike started fast and was probably a harder hitter than Oscar Bonavena.
If Frazier fought Liston around 1959-60 I think he'd suffer the same fate that he did against Foreman. Sonny would have too much reach and power--that left jab would REALLY do a number on Joe! Eventually Sonny would start landing the heavy artillery and that would be it.
Dejohn was an extremely hard puncher. Liston even stated Dejohn was the second hardest puncher he faced after Williams, which surprised me quite a bit, as I expected him to rank Valdes in that spot. However Dejohn knocking out Frazier in the first round no less, is definitely farfetched. Foreman a far better fighter, and more powerful puncher couldn't do that to Frazier. Dejohn was a fringe contender at best.
You're right, he was a fringe contender, slow and clumsy and vulnerable to a two-fisted body attack like the one Frazier wielded. However. he knocked out two pretty good men (Charlie Powell and Alex Miteff) in 0:47 and 1:15 respectively on Friday Night Fights. I'm not comparing those two to Frazier. I'm saying when a puncher like DeJohn lands one in the opening seconds when the opponent is still cold anything can happen.
Regardless specifics, I think this alternative timeline for Smoking Joe would be quite similar to what happened IRL. Joe beats Patterson handily, and no need for the FOTC version. Simply put, Floyd lacks the power and toughness needed to stop Joe's relentless pressure. Those cute gazelle punches are not match for Joe's brutal left hooks. However, once Joe crosses paths with a prime Sonny it is Kingston all over again. Prime Sonny is simply too big, strong and vicious for Joe to overcome. Maybe Joe manages to last longer than he did versus Foreman, but probably that just means an even worse beating.
I give Frazier a better chance than most would against Liston, but I still consider it pretty likely he would lose. How to solve the Liston dilemma, then? Frazier might still become Champion if D’Amato lets Patterson fight him, but would he? Probably not. If he doesn’t, then Frazier & Liston are in a foot race to rise to no. 1 in the rankings & make their case impossible to ignore. Liston could rack up results quicker as he takes less punishment & fights fewer rounds, but on the other hand, Frazier was a cleanskin which is bound to appeal to Patterson & the public, & he’s less intimidating than Liston. If Frazier can get to Patterson first, he’ll probably have a brief tenure as Champ before it’s snuffed out by Liston. He’ll be too old & shopworn to beat the young Ali once he arrives on the scene. In the real timeline, Frazier had an 11-year career, from 1965-76. Granted, in this new timeline he doesn’t have the wars with Ali or beatings from Foreman to age him, but it’s still probably a similar length given his style - let’s say, 1954-65/66.
It's possible that Frazier never becomes champion if he started in 54. Prime Liston may knock him out of contention and by the time Ali comes around in 64-67, Frazier MAY have been starting to get past it.
Yeah, but what if he doesn't get a shot at Patterson and then from 59-62, he's frozen out of a title shot while Ingo and Patterson play pass the title back and forth? If that happens, Joe may never be heavyweight champion. But I agree, if he did fight Patterson, he beats him.
If he had a trainer like Eddie Futch who could replicate the same style and regimen that he had in actuality then he does quite well. As for how he’d fair against Liston, I would still make Sonny the favorite but I don’t think it’s the mismatch that I used to think it would be. Joe was one of the very best at slipping the jab in history and I think this would prove useful against Sonny’s jab. Liston was also rocked pretty good by the left hooks of both Cleveland Williams and Nino Valdez and now he’d be up against one of the very best left hookers of all time. This could be a bloody fight for both men
Another Time Warp? But Smoking Joe Frazier would have had the dubious honor of facing a prime Charles Sonny Liston, a prime Eddie Machen, whom Frazier had actually stopped in ten rounds on Nov 21 1966. Frazier would have faced the likes of Floyd Patterson, Roy Cut N Shoot Harris, Cleveland Big Cat Williams, ten years before he was wounded by a Texas State Trooper, Ingemar Johansson and even Ernie Terrell. Frazier however would not have faced Rocky Marciano as Rocky retired in April 1956 after disposing of World Light Heavyweight Champion Archie Moore, another possible Frazier opponent, by TKO 9 on Sept 21 1955 and retired undefeated as World Heavyweight Champion.
Joe Frazier in the real world was decked twice in the same round by Oscar Bonavena and his right hand on Sept 21 1966 before eking out a controversial split decision.
