Joe Frazier vs. Late 60's & all 70's big punchers

He beats them all IMO. Too much is made of his defeats to Foreman, but if he had taken on more punchers this might not have been the case.

 

It depends when these matches take place. I tend to think Norton, Shavers and Lyle win at least 1 match perhaps 2 over the Frazier that Foreman destroyed.

IMO, Frazier prime years ended after the first Ali fight in 1971, and from here on in he was in a slow, but noticeable decline.

Liston vs Frazier in 1969 would be a hard one to call.

Had Frazier fought say half the names on this list, IMO he has two more losses on his resume ( Omiting Cooper and Bobbick, which are pretty much gimmies ).

 

First of all, everyone who responds to this thread should do their best not to base judgement on Frazier's fights with George Foreman. Anyone who watched those fights should know that Frazier was far from his prime shape and was foolish to think that he could win on skill and experience alone. He grossly underestimated, undertrained and didn't give Foreman much respect even though he won a heavyweight gold medal like himself in the 68 olympics. I've said this before and I'll say it again. Nobody should discredit Foreman's two wins against Frazier, but he never fought the same fighter that was the dominant force in the late 1960's.

The toughest match for Frazier in this group of fighters IMO is Sonny Liston. I read threads earlier suggesting Frazier was no challenge for Liston and he gets KO'd quick and early. Sonny could be the best pure boxer of this group of fighters aside from Floyd Patterson and I believe he's the only one who has the potential to knock Frazier out. However, Sonny didn't have that much of a height advantage to Frazier, 6'1 to 5'11 3/4, and there's no comparison between Frazier's pressure and Patterson's pressure. If Joe makes it past the early rounds against Sonny, I have every reason to believe he would outwork him, win a UD, and maybe stop Liston late.

What's forgotten about all these potential matchups is Frazier's signature body attack. Liston, Shavers, Lyle and Mac Foster are the biggest punchers of this group could have Frazier down early, but I'd bet on Joe to get up and keep going to work, hooking from both hands to the body. He knocked out Manuel Ramos with a body shot in the second round, which should speak for Frazier in terms of his own power. Yank Durham didn't let Lyle spar with Frazier in fear of destroying his early confidence when he was first starting out, but he let him spar with Norton and apparently he did OK.

Paterson and Cooper would definitely last a couple of rounds but I think they'd both fade in the middle rounds from Frazier's pressure. Patterson and Frazier likely trade punches in the early rounds in a very exciting fight and it wouldn't surprise me to see Frazier go down from a leaping Patterson hook. Cooper probably wouldn't last too long because he cuts way too easy.

Futch said Frazier was always able to handle Ken Norton in sparring and believed Frazier would KO Norton in a real boxing contest. Norton and Bobick definitely could hurt Frazier early, but they both wouldn't make it past the 10 round with Frazier. Again, Frazier's forgotten body work would be the key in these matchups.

 

I second Bokaj's comments.

 

Shavers and Lyle both scare me a bit for Joe as they started so fast and hit so hard ... especially Earnie ... However unlike Norton Joe did not freeze up and most likely would have prepared to be ready and beaten both ...

 

Seems to me on these forums people think Frazier gets eaten up by any big puncher..

 

Yes, but Norton got better in the ealry to mid 70's while Frazier was pretty much in decline as early as 1972. A 1975-1976 fight could have gone either way. Frazier in decline post Foreman did not make matches with any punchers, and I think that was his management's choice, unless a lot of money was on the table. IMO, Lyle, Shavers, or Norton could have beatn Frazier post 1975.

Norton hit harder than Ali, and had perhaps the most under rated body punching I've ever seen, and I say that because no one talks about it. Norton really threw good body shots.

If you look at common oppoents, Norton did better than Frazier did vs Ali, Quarry, and Stander. Wow-- catch Norton vs Stander if you can. While part of this had to due with Quarry being a past his best when Norton faced him, on paper what I said is true.

 

I think, alltime, the person who would be as much trouble as Foreman for Frazier is probably Vitali Klitschko.. I really dont see many of the 70 heavyweights beating him.. Norton and Lyle maybe, I dont see Shavers beating Frazier, Frazier could weather Shavers stuff early and wear him out quick imo.

 

Frazier vs. Sonny Liston (1969) - Frazier near prime, Liston old, slowing and lacking stamina. To put Frazier away Foreman needed to be sharply throwing around 80punches a round. Liston cant do this, he may KD Frazier but overall Frazier outworks him. FRAZIER UD

Frazier vs Mac Foster - Frazier KO mid rounds after been down early, too strong and relentless.

Frazier vs Ron Lyle - WHEN?? Lyle was easyish to hitand outwork and outbox. Quarry managed to outbox, outwork and beat up Lyle and I expect Frazier to manage this too. FRAZIER UD

Frazier vs Earnie Shavers - FRAZIER KO6 - after been down early. Shavers doesn't have the stamina to put Frazier awayand would be easy to hit for Frazier too.

Frazier vs Floyd Patterson - Frazier UD 10-5 - just too young and strong

Frazier vs Ken Norton - WHEN???? Frazier wins by stoppage 1968-1971, upto 1975 he still wins. I doubt Norton gets over being owned in sparring.

Frazier vs Henry Cooper - Frazier KO mid rounds, easish win

Frazier vs Duane Bobick - Frazier KO early-mid rounds

 

Vitali fights more like a taller lesser ALi than Foreman with his arm punches and leaning back hands down style. Leaning back against a relentless left hooker is a bad recipe. This is made for a relentless ducking and weaving Frazier whos would weave his way inside and put Vitali in backward gear

 

I agree with the overall body of this post.

Too many assume that just because Foreman defeated Frazier in convincing fashion, that any man who had a sting to his punch could have easily beaten him. This logic is horribly flaud. Foreman had a style that was tayor made to beat Frazier, and was dissimilar to that of many all time great sluggers. Additionally, you commented on the fact that Joe was slightly on the decline when fighting Foreman. While I do not feel that even a peak Joe could have beaten George, I happen to think that a prime Frazier would have matched up better against a lot of other punchers. Lastly, Foreman was a concencus all time hard puncher who had to deck Joe multiple times, before a referee intervention took place. It wasn't like George hit him once on the chin, and it was good night.

 

I agree with the overall body of this post.

Too many assume that just because Foreman defeated Frazier in convincing fashion, that any man who had a sting to his punch could have easily beaten him. This logic is horribly flaud. Foreman had a style that was tayor made to beat Frazier, and was dissimilar to that of many all time great sluggers. Additionally, you commented on the fact that Joe was slightly on the decline when fighting Foreman. While I do not feel that even a peak Joe could have beaten George, I happen to think that a prime Frazier would have matched up better against a lot of other punchers. Lastly, Foreman was a concencus all time hard puncher who had to deck Joe multiple times, before a referee intervention took place. It wasn't like George hit him once on the chin, and it was good night.

 

I agree with the overall body of this post.

Too many assume that just because Foreman defeated Frazier in convincing fashion, that any man who had a sting to his punch could have easily beaten him. This logic is horribly flaud. Foreman had a style that was tayor made to beat Frazier, and was dissimilar to that of many all time great sluggers. Additionally, you commented on the fact that Joe was slightly on the decline when fighting Foreman. While I do not feel that even a peak Joe could have beaten George, I happen to think that a prime Frazier would have matched up better against a lot of other punchers. Lastly, Foreman was a concencus all time hard puncher who had to deck Joe multiple times, before a referee intervention took place. It wasn't like George hit him once on the chin, and it was good night.

 

I agree with the overall body of this post.

Too many assume that just because Foreman defeated Frazier in convincing fashion, that any man who had a sting to his punch could have easily beaten him. This logic is horribly flaud. Foreman had a style that was tayor made to beat Frazier, and was dissimilar to that of many all time great sluggers. Additionally, you commented on the fact that Joe was slightly on the decline when fighting Foreman. While I do not feel that even a peak Joe could have beaten George, I happen to think that a prime Frazier would have matched up better against a lot of other punchers. Lastly, Foreman was a concencus all time hard puncher who had to deck Joe multiple times, before a referee intervention took place. It wasn't like George hit him once on the chin, and it was good night.