Joe Frazier vs. Lennox Lewis

Lennox Lewis, like the Klitschko's provides Joe with a very sizeable body shot target. If the ref allows Lewis to push, shove off, hold and hit underneath, and grab Joe's shoulders like he did against Michael Grant, patterned after Foreman's techniques in 1973, Lewis could keep Frazier at bay and probably lands the long uppercuts from the outside and has him in big trouble. It is unlikely though, IMO against 1968 - FOTC version of Joe. His quickness moving forward and head movement is something that Lennox has never faced and I believe is underrated considering how many times he caught Ali on the ropes. Forget about the Lewis vs Tyson comparison because Mike had no business weighing 240 lbs to have any effectiveness against Lewis.

Put any heavyweight in the ring, replacing Ali against FOTC Joe Frazier, and they'd be in for a tough battle. The only fighters I'd say that have a legit chance at stopping FOTC Joe Frazier early are Foreman, Liston and Tyson, based on the power factor alone. I'd still bet on FOTC Joe to make it past the early rounds and land some serious body shots to a stoppage victory, especially if Joe fights them all like he fought Chuvalo. Consistent pressure, but with more circling and countering when pressured himself. Chuvalo, Quarry and Ramos were able to back Joe up, moreso Chuvalo, but Joe smartly used his feet moving to his left and right while not ignoring his right hook to the body as well. Against Foreman, Joe kept getting up after being knocked down and tried to attack him straight on every time.

Pete, Tyson did something better that I don't know if you agree with me but I've mentioned before. Tyson double-slipped to both sides with his shoulders throwing hooks to the body with either hand. It's part of the peak-a-boo style like Patterson, but Floyd stood up more and relied on the quickness of his jab. He might have done better against Liston if he actually used his head more and wasn't scared before the fight even started. Marciano used the double-slip two, but incorporated more rolling under the punches like Goldman used to make him do in training, rolling low under the heavy bag. Frazier didn't double-slip as much, prefer to duck, weave and roll like Marciano, but he would get caught with uppercuts on the outside like he did against Foreman. Still, a quicker version of Joe made Ali miss a lot of uppercuts and landed his own left hook over top of that. This very reason is why I believe FOTC Joe Frazier should be given more credit when used in matchups against guys like Lennox, the Klitschkos, Foreman, Lyle, Tyson etc. Why wouldn't a prime Frazier be able to make these guys miss and landed his signature body shots. It's not like Frazier was a pushover either because Ali said his legs were strong and he had trouble keeping him off.

 

You make some good points. I have to admit you're the most passionate Frazier fan I've seen. It's a little bit of an extreme. I think you think that Frazier is actually the greatest H2H Heavyweight fighter.

Yes, I knew that about Tyson. Good observation with comparing Patterson. Patterson had a tendency to not slip as head as much, and also seemed to freeze about when getting tagged. Tyson never had this problem, and Tyson had a large range of head-movement when he slips left to right or vice-versa.

The uppercut vulnerable would be a problem on the inside. So would Lewis' tactics. A 12 round fight should be a Lewis fight. I think I had Ali up by 12 rounds in FOTC. I'm not sure though.

 

Agree. Additionally and probably (imo) most important is the ref. Does the ref allow Lewis to jab once as Joe rushes in and then hold and drape that giant, heavy body across Joe's back and wearing him out prematurely. :bbb

 

I think Lewis wins this comfortably ,too strong too big, and too good.
He may even take Frazier out early with a right hand,but more likely a mid to late rounds stoppage..I see Frazier only really landing to Lennox's body ,and Joe's power is overated imo, Mathis took it for 11 rds,and was in front after 7,this becomes Johnson ,v Burns,Lennox manhandling Frazier in close and punishing him at range.
Lewis had a very good uppercut too,in fact, style wise he has it all over Joe ,imo.
Frazier would be more courageous than Tua was ,and would not settle for survival after sampling a couple of right crosses ,but this would be the key to his destruction ,Frazier could only fight coming at you,he would be hammered doing it and stopped .

 

It's a very tough match up for Frazier ... If Lennox boxed him and did not get foolish I feel he is the only on of the super heavyweights that had the skill set to beat him. The ref and style allowed wold be key ... no lock by any means ...

Funny how so many here underate Frzier. He is far and away the most underated heavyweight by this group. However, interesting how every one of the fighters , from Ali to Holmes to Foreman to Norton to Lyle to Quarry to Chuvalo viewed him extremely high ... tell any of them that Joe had a weak chn or he was one dimensional or his power overated and they would look at you like a fool. Whatever.

 

Ali up by 12 rounds in the FOTC is madness. You are trying to take this fight away from Joe like some people on this forum. I guess pressure, dictating the fight and landing the harder shots still doesn't count for you? I guess Ali won the Ferdie Pacheco titled "terrible 11th" round too? What about the knockdown in the 15th round? Was that an Ali round too? LOL. I guess all of the middle rounds, except for the 9th when Ali sat on the ropes and took body shot after body shot means he won the round too?

By the way, I don't think Frazier is the greatest heavyweight champion. There is no greatest heavyweight champion, but Ali is probably the closest man that can lay claim to that considering his body of work, especially in the late 1970's. Jack Johnson is the greatest heavyweight champion or gets the most votes IMO. His defense was ahead of his time and the fact that like Archie Moore, was denied in his own division for many years to fight for the title.

Can you just agree with me that very few heavyweight fighters, champions or contenders, prime for prime, H2H, would not have an easy fight if they stood in the ring against FOTC Frazier or just prior to FOTC conditioned Joe Frazier?

Yes, I can see Foreman, Liston, Tyson, Lewis, maybe Shavers, maybe Lyle, maybe the Klitschkos, all in their primes, all more than capable of hurting prime Joe early, and having him on the canvas. I don't see any of the above stopping him early though. Joe was hard to hit and wouldn't be hit as frequently if you're not Ali. All of these guys would be hit with some wicked body shots from Joe, and unless you've actually boxed and know what a hard body shot from a heavyweight feels like, you're going to slow down, round by round.

Lennox Lewis, IMO has the potential to face the least danger against Frazier because he's the most athletic heavyweight champion, moving on his feet since Ali. Lennox could probably keep FOTC Joe Frazier on the outside with his jab for a number of rounds, but to say that Joe wouldn't catch Lewis doesn't give the man any credit because he caught Ali repeatedly who is much faster on foot than Lewis.

Some on this forum say that Frazier had nothing in his punching arsenal to bother Foreman with, but that's totally not true. Foreman said himself that Joe's left hooks stung in both fights, and his fear of him the first time around in 1973 prompted him to try his best to stop Joe early, which he did. Nobody on this forum should deny the difference in conditioning and speed from the late 1960's Frazier to the 1973 version that got beat by George. The difference is right there in the tapes, and Ali himself said how surprised he was to see Joe moving slower and look out of shape. Chuvalo told me the exact same thing. Foreman even said he probably would have lost to Frazier if he faced the same conditioned fighter that took Ali 15 rounds in 1971. Sure, a lot on this forum will conclude that George is just being nice and respectful, but it wouldn't have been true if George wasn't scared of Frazier, which he was. Foreman said the same nice things about Quarry, who apparently handled George pretty solid in an early sparring match.

 

I think the greener 93-94 version of Lewis struggles to keep Joe at distance and gets drug into an inside fight, but the polished calculated Lewis of 97 puts Joe into the second level in four or five.

 

Stop being childish. I know Sugar isn't the most reputable go to throw in the mix but his opinion on the fight was "Frazier sealed it with the Knockdown."

Honestly, some Frazier fans protest the second fight was a draw. The second fight was at the very least equally as decisive as the first fight for Frazier as far as I'm concerned.

Here's my scoring of the FOTC last time I scored it.

Round 1 - Ali
Round 2 - Ali
Round 3 - Draw
Round 4 - Joe
Round 5 - Ali
Round 6 - Joe
Round 7 - Draw
Round 8 - Joe
Round 9 - Ali
Round 10 - Draw
Round 11 - Joe
Round 12 - Joe

5-4-3 Frazier

Okay, so I had Frazier up by round 12.

And of course Ali won round nine. Pretty sure he stunned Joe in that round.

I recall having trouble scoring Round 7 and 10. I think 7 could've been a Joe round. 10 was also a tough one. I think Ali did well early but faded.

I'm speaking in H2H terms.

I think Foreman and Tyson would win, and probably win early. The rest would have a hell of a time. Liston might be the one I'm not sure about... could be the next toughest fight though.

It's a tough fight to call. In a 12 round fight I might favor Lewis. In a 15 round fight I might favor Joe. It's close, but I slightly favor Lewis. And in doing so it's not by underrating Frazier as some attest.

Well, we can't neccessarily take Foreman's word. He's a bit modest to other fighters. I'm not sure if it was the fear the drove Foreman out to kill Frazier, but obviously I don't think he wanted a long fight with him.

Source?

I thin he said. "Believe me, if I have the Frazier of 2 years ago it would have been a very different fight."

And he was "afraid of Norton." Which I thought was just bull**** personally.

 

Come to think of it this is clearly the best analysis.

 

Frazier isn't underrated. He's just got his fans & fanatics just like Marciano does. No difference.

 

Quarry and Chuvalo ,neither of them hard to hit ,were stopped on their feet.Frazier was an accumulation puncher, he broke you down over rounds.
I must be a fool then.

 

Good thread, and a great matchup, Lennox could guard against the left hook pretty well especially if he didnt have to worry unduly about the right hand, but Frazier was more mobile and conditioned than Tyson and Tua when they fought Lewis.

Frazier isnt as strong or iron-chinned as those guys and he doesnt have the same 2-handed threat of Tyson but if he keeps slipping Lewis' jab (which is heavy but not always fast) and keeping him on the back foot it would be very interesting.

 

No he doesn't Princess , Rocky has you ...

Have it close by round 12. Then score it and mention Ali had a big round 9 (which he never badly hurt Frazier) but leave out that Joe had Ali out on his feet in rd 11 ... this is boxing 101 knowledge which you lack ... you are clearly a keyboard loudmouth, nothing more ...

 

I'm of a similar mindset to Hydraulix on this one - plus I would like to argue that, for me, the better version of Lennox Lewis was, the 227 lb one who tackled the likes of Razor Ruddock and Frank Bruno - and that is the version I go with over the 205 lb Frazier (rather than any later version) - that young Lewis had the badass swagger , the youth, the speed (much faster on his feet) and was cocky enough at that stage to really want to take people out (and look cool-as while doing it).

Yes: Lewis does own the very modern legacy of having won all the big 3 major organisational belts without actually beating either of the actual belt holders in the ring.

and yes: Lewis is always the first to grab and smother

and yes: Every power-puncher Lewis faced did, at some point in the fight, ask questions of Lewis' chin

But I just think that Lennox Lewis' punch carried much more weight than all of his statistics combined.

I think this would be a great fight while it lasted because I think the young Lewis' strutting around and trying to be all 'street' would get Frazier a bit riled up - Frazier didn't like cockiness in fighters so I think there might be a bit of grudge in this one which would bring out the best in each of them - but in the end I just see Lewis as all wrong style wise for Frazier and his power would bring and end somewhere in the middle rounds - as ever for me Frazier just takes too long to get his punches going at full steam whereas Lewis could I think could get people over as quick as :rasta

 

You loving my dick, don't you. Cause you're just all over it.

Why mention round 11 when round 9 is the only thing specifically mentioned. Ali staggered Joe in round 9. Joe buckled and went backwards. But you're the idiot that thinks no man could've taken a beating the way he did against Foreman and keep getting up. He was knocked down by in his second fight against a nobody like Mike Bruce. He wasn't invincible.

Keep the hate coming, though.