Joe Frazier vs. Rocky Marciano

Willie James was big and could hit hard . He killed Olympic Champion Ed Sanders with his fists. It effectively ruined his ring career, he was so traumatized by it. James also beat bert whitehust, and 19-0 New England Champion Willie Wilson.


ps James was stopped by Lowry due to Cuts

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCU7_gUrGos[/ame]

 

James wasn't that good. Layne had trouble beating Hall as well. The only heavyweights Foster got beat by when he was at his best, were top contenders or champions in that division

 

"Layne had trouble beating Hall as well."

Not as much as Archie Moore did. Moore lost to Hall.

Hall also stopped Bob Satterfield. In the two fights leading into the Layne fight Hall had drawn with Jimmy Slade and beaten Lloyd Gibson. He would win his next six fights after the Layne fight, including a decision over John Holman.

Hall did much more at heavyweight than Foster. As a matter of fact, although a mere tough spoiler in his era, his best wins are better than Foster's at both lightheavy and heavy--Moore at lightheavy, Holman at heavy.

 

Hall was on a losing streak at that time. He lost to Bob Amos, a Light Heavyweight, Kenny Harris, another Light Heavyweight, Harold Johnson, Great Light Heavyweight and Doc Williams, another Light Heavyweight. He then took almost 2 years off and fought a draw against Slade who was a Light Heavyweight, then beat Gibson, another Light Heavyweight, then he lost to Layne by a split decision.

 

There is a point here, but merely losing badly doesn't make you good. You have to beat someone. Whom did Foster defeat at heavyweight?

 

He didn't fight that much as a heavyweight and the ones that he did fight were the best or near the best of that era. Matthews would not have done any better.

 

Whatever. If he hadn't fought Layne he would have gone undefeated through eight fights with a draw with Slade and a victory over Holman. Both men would be rated in the top five within a few years.

And however much you want to focus on his bad performances, this is a man who defeated Archie Moore only two years earlier.


This is actually a nice win on Layne's resume in my judgement.

 

"Matthews would not have done any better"

Guesswork. Especially against Jones and Folley.

What we do know is that Matthews did better in his own era.

 

IBRO rated Foster #5 all-time in the Light Heavyweight Class. Matthews didn't even make the cut.
1. Archie Moore
2. Ezzard Charles
3. Sam Langford
4. Gene Tunney
5. Bob Foster
6. Tommy Loughran
7. Michael Spinks
8. Bob Fitzsimmons
9. Billy Conn
10. Roy Jones, Jr.
11. Maxie Rosenbloom
12. John Henry Lewis
13. Harry Greb
14. Tommy Gibbons
15. Philadelphia Jack O’Brien
16. Jack Dillon
17. Harold Johnson
18. Jimmy Bivins
19. Georges Carpentier
20. Battling Levinsky

Just missing the cut: Jack Delaney, Kid McCoy, Matthew Saad Muhammad, Dwight Qawi, Joey Maxim, Joe Choynski, Kid Norfolk, Virgil Hill, Tommy Burns, and Tiger Jack Fox.

 

Foster dominated his era and Matthews was never champion. That is and should be important to historians. Tiger Jack Fox is the last man listed. I would give him a hellava shot at Foster. I would actually favor Fox.

I should just say outright that I think Foster might be the most overrated fighter of them all, at least off resume. If he is great, you really can't get it from whom he defeated.

 

I would say Folley without a doubt at that time he fought Foster. He just got done beating Oscar and a year before he beat Chuvalo. Foster was a substitute for Zora Folley when he fought Jones. Jones's only loses at thta time were against Machen, Johnson and Folley, so I would favor him also.

 

I agree for the most part.

 

Bonavena and Chuvalo were not slick boxers while Matthew was. Folley's meat was always crude sluggers. And Matthews could punch even against heavyweights. Machen, Johnson, and Folley were the best fighters Jones had fought and he lost to all of them.

I see Matthews as having a good shot at beating Folley and an excellent shot at beating Jones. One thing is certain. He can't do worse than lose to everyone like Foster did.

 

Matthews would not beat Folley. Folley in his prime was a very good fighter. He clearly and cleanly outboxed a man you rate highly, Eddie Machen. If Eddie coult not outbox folley, Matthews couldn't come close. Come on FogMan, Matthews was pretty good, but Folley and Machen were in a much higher class.

Folley would win a wide decision over matthews or knock him out