Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston

I think Sonny takes Frazier,some fighters trip over their chin,Frazier trips over his heart in this one.Joe doesn't match up well with sturdy big men,with big power.He comes straight ahead,throwing puches,even if he does get inside the long left jab of Liston,he runs into to a better left hook than his own.I can't think of to many fighters who went right in and traded with Liston,that did very well.I am one who believes even in the 1968-69,older version of Sonny woulda did well with a fighter he did not have to chase.

 

For my money he's got Liston and Dempsey mixed up.

 

I dont get this whole "Liston wanted to quit" thing. If it werent for Angelo Dundee, Ali would have quit on his stool in the 4th round cause his eyes were burning but dundee had to save his ass and shove him into the ring....ali was like "Ange CUT EM OFF!"....does that make ali a quitter?

 

To be honest, I don't see Foreman getting tired in the video. In fact, I don't even see Frazier tired; he looks dizzy and more beaten than a Mexican Pinhata, but not tired. Probably the referee was the only one getting tired for having to count ten so many times

Joe was a warrior, no doubt on that. Had the referee not stopped the fight, he would have kept coming back for more :!: .... but all his heroics wouldn't have changed the fact that Foreman was just too much for him.

BTW, what the fudge with Foreman pushing Frazier so many times?

 

Two very big differences here:

1. He couldn't see and didn't really know why. That will stress you up when you're in the most important fight of your life against one of the most feared punchers ever. Liston could see just fine when he quit.

2. He didn't quit. Liston did.


A better comparison is when Ali lost to Holmes. He felt that something was wrong (drained by meds) already in the first round, but continued taking a bad beating for nine rounds before reluctantly quitting on Dundee's insistence (Dundee was actually screaming in the corner that he would have none of Ali continuing).

 

Ali said to Dundee "cut them off to show the world there is dirty work here", he thought he would be exposing the problems with his eyes.
As you said he knew after the first round he had nothing against Holmes, yet continued getting up from is stool and taking a beating .
I think he had a heart as big as a building myself.

 

Oh please, i know you're a good poster, but you're not seriously comparing Liston's situation after 6 light rounds to Frazier's near-death condition after 14 grueling rounds of close combat in inhumane heat?

 

No. But I do think Listons quitting against Ali was no worse than oscar quitting on his stool vs Pacquaio...I think there very similiar in fact.


The champions who i critisize for quitting on there stool are the ones who are in there primes, and quit while ahead on the cards vs a non dangerous opponent.

 

Prime Sonny Liston by 6th round TKO over prime Frazier for me. If Frazier could possibly go beyond six rounds, he may have an outside chance. But I just see him taking too much punishment. A brutal fight for Frazier due to Joe's forward style, and Liston's power, mainly a vicious left jab, and hook/uppercut.

 

Tired? Foreman was just getting warmed up.Round 15 is a Frazier Fan Boy,and not objective on this subject.
Any one notice that Frazier lands two full blooded left hooks on Foreman 's chops and he totally ignores them ?
Foreman kept pushing Frazier back to get him at the optimum distance to land his sweeping hooks,Mercante warned him a couple of times but let it go, perhaps he was too busy counting

 

There's nothing to be "eye to eye" about. The film is right there and clearly shows Foreman's attack is faster and more furious.

But that has nothing to do with who is more faster.

His jab wasn't any faster and in fact, sometime he threw it even slower than Foreman did.

Foreman showed boxing ability early in his career as well, ie: vs. Chuvalo.

However, I do agree his attack was generally more intense and relentless than Liston's. Which is precisely one of the things that made his style so troubling for Frazier.

What do you mean "Says who"? Whose words do you need to see in order to believe something? The film is right there, and what it shows is what is.

Who said anything about scorecards?

Both fighters had done enough to win 3 rounds out of a 6 round fight. Hence, it was even.

No, everyone was completely shocked and baffled when the fight was suddenly stopped.

Does a fighter need to quit in every fight in order to be acknowledged as a quitter? You said Foreman's stamina was his "sever flaw," but he didn't get tired in every fight that went a long distance, either.

You have no idea what was going on in Foreman's mind, and it wasn't a lack of heart that cost him either fight.

No he didn't, he only responded to Liston's words that he didn't want to continue.

 

You're talking about Liston's technique here. That's a separate issue from who is more naturally talented.

 

Mcvey, yes I am a Frazier fan and I can be objective on this subject.

Frazier gets no respect from the Ali fans who are adamant that Frazier would have never existed in heavyweight boxing and would never have been champion if Ali was never exiled.

Frazier gets no respect in terms of the clear picture difference in the quality of fighter from 1967 - 1970, and the fighter who showed up to defend against Foreman in 1973.

Like I said earlier, most people who conclude that Sonny Liston destroys Joe worse than Foreman or just as quick aren't looking at the entire picture with respect to that match-up.

Sonny was barely taller than Frazier, so this notion that Frazier has a serious physical disadvantage is wrong. Frazier is no Floyd Patterson, and he wouldn't be scared of Liston either.

Prime Joe Frazier is faster hand and foot than most give him credit for. Even though Ali did land quite a few punches against Frazier in the FOTC, Joe made him miss a lot of punches too.

Why is it so hard to believe on this forum by some that the conditioned Frazier of the late 1960's wouldn't do better against Foreman? I'm not saying that Frazier automatically wins the fight because history showed he got his butt whupped in two fights, lasting seven rounds against George.

My belief is that if Foreman stood across from Frazier in the FOTC with the conditioning he showed, Foreman doesn't knock him out as easily. I would bet on 1967 - 1970 conditioned Frazier to survive Foreman's early power shots and answer the bell for round five. If, and that's a very big IF, Frazier sees round five against Foreman, he makes a much tougher fight and has a much stronger chance at winning based on Foreman's history of conditioning. There's no reason not to believe a prime Frazier who was faster and in better shape than what he showed in 1973, couldn't make Foreman miss because he was one of the hardest guys to hit cleanly. Maybe Ali changed his tune back and forth saying Frazier was easy to hit, but I've read and listened to interviews where Ali said Frazier made him miss more punches than any other fighter in his career. At the same time, Pacheco, Dundee and Don Dunphy repeatedly said that Frazier was one of the hardest fighters to hit cleanly with his superior head movement and all of them can't remember another opponent where Ali missed more punches.

You could be totally right about Durham and Futch steering Frazier away from the Liston camp because that fight never happened. I just think it's wrong to conclude that Frazier would get destroyed by Sonny easily when he doesn't present the same physical advantages that Foreman did. It's easy to put Patterson and Frazier in the same sentence stylistically because they were both shorter fighters that relied more on pressure tactics.

Mcvey, you can't deny the fact that Foreman's wrestling tactics weren't penalized by Mercante. Ali tried to push down on Frazier's shoulders early in Manilla, figuring he could get away with those tactics having Tony Perez officiate the match. Carlos Padilla would have none of it though, and warned Ali for this tactic which was ten times more miniscule than the tactics Foreman did to Frazier. Boxing is not about putting both your hands on your opponent's shoulders and shoving him aside repeatedly, which Foreman did. Frazier, in the condition that he was, landed some good shots against Foreman in the first minute of the 1973 title defense. Foreman did back up when Joe landed the hook but came right back pushing and shoving off.

If George was warned about this tactic, he would have been forced to use his footwork against Frazier and box from in close which he was not very good at. Foreman's uppercut wouldn't have been a factor in the fight if Mercante paid attention to the rules and allowed Frazier to work on the inside. This is where Joe's body attack and head movement would factor in the fight. Although Ali didn't throw a proper uppercut, his was much faster than Foreman's and Joe made Ali miss all kinds of punches including the uppercut.

It's Joes own fault that he chose Jamaica to defend against Foreman, partying in the sun while at the same time getting his butt whupped in sparring by Norton. Futch knew that Frazier was far from his best, but he believed Frazier's ability and experience would be the deciding factor against Foreman. So for this reason alone, I believe Frazier would have done better against Foreman. Not saying he wins, but his chances improve greatly, IF he answers the bell for round five. Foreman bests rounds are usually the first four, while Frazier's best rounds are usually between 5 and 10.

 

Big Frazier and Liston fans here.

Did Frazier's handlers (Eddie Futch and Yank Durham) ever consider a Liston fight? They must have done.

I wonder if their opinions on such a match-up were recorded....

 

I love Frazier but Sonny is a very tough match up for him. Watch a prime Liston against Cleveland and see the bombs he survived. I see him being too much for Joe.