Joe Frazier vs. Sonny Liston

OK, well i agree that Frazier did rely more on the left hook than any other fighter in history while coming forward, you could call him a one trick pony in that sense. All i'm saying is that this is one hell of a pony.

Williams might punch harder than Frazier, but Frazier stopped several top heavyweights while Williams stopped only one in his entire career.


I don't think Ali looked better in their rematch in '74 at all. He was holding on all the time and the man in front of him was clearly not as good as he was in '71, which made it a bit easier for Ali. Ali came off stopping two top contenders in '71 (Bonavena and Quarry), i don't see how do a few fights with guys like Lubbers, Norton et al make him more ready for Frazier, especially considering he was over 30 by then.


Yes, Frazier is 1-4 against ATG's, but he deteriorated quickly, had two very close losses to Ali and bad luck in facing a stylistic nightmare in Foreman. So, i think there is more behind the "1-4" than just a 20% win percentage.

Frazier is 1-4 against ATG's, ok. What is Liston against ATG's? 0-2. That's a 0% win percentage. See how numbers can twist reality?



Anyway, i guess we'll never agree on Frazier.


For the record, i do pick Liston by early KO, but i think Frazier's chances are a bit better than most project.

 

Foreman was a stylistic nightmare for Joe ,and so would Sonny be imo.Liston is 02 against all time greats ,Ali was his bogeyman ,but say Frazier only met one atg Foreman ,his record would be the same.Ali lost a close but definite decision to Frazierin71,Ali sclaed 215 Frazier 2051/2.
Three years later Ali is down to 212,while Joe was up to 209.Its true Joe was fading but Ali wasnt improving he just had more fights to regain his stamina,Jose Torres went to watch Ali train for the first Frazier fight ,he asked Ali why he spent so much time on the ropes,Ali replied "I wont do that in the fight ,I'llbe dancing"Torres thought,because Ali was unsure of his stamina,in the second fight, he did get away with a lot of holding ,but he didnt lay on the ropes as much ,he had the benefit of 112 rounds of boxing under his belt,against the likes of Ellis ,Mathis,Foster,Chuvalo,Quarry,Patterson,Bugner,and Norton x2,Ali was no longer in his prime imo he had lost a step,and as Chuvalo commented after facing him the second time he didnt sustain his attack as long ,but fought in short flurries,I agree with you that Frazier was on the decline,his body never really looked as toned ,maybe some of the iron had been melted away ,his spirit and resolve were still there but his unquenchable fire had been a little dimmned imo.Swarmers dont have a long shelf life,especially if they run into thumpers like Foreman,I dont sell Joe short I think you know I have a high regard for him,he wouldnt be a rollover for anyone ,but I see a repeat of the Foreman club down if he met Liston.

 

I think Joe is extremely underrated these days! I like Joe's chances against almost (ALMOST) anyone H2H...But Liston and Foreman are the 2 guys I envision Joe having an extremely difficult time against...Liston in 7..Unfortunately!

 

Not even just the power because shavers, lyle had the power. Liston had the PUNCHING SKILLS and uppercuts and inside/mid range/long range punching abilities to get him outtta there.

 

Muhammad Ali may have been the greatest in history, add to the fact Liston was as aging, very rusty, over the hill physically. I think your picking at straws with the Machen critisism. Liston won around 10 of the 12 rounds vs an A level boxer like machen(I can't believe you compared chris bryd to him, machen was league above bryd in terms of talent, style and resume). It was a convincing victory over machen

Completley agree




Cleveland Williams only knocked out one top teir fighter, because outside of liston, machen ,terell, no other top contender was willing to meet cleveland williams because of his tremendous reputation. is that clevelands fault?

Also Cleveland did quite well vs two A level contenders in Terrell and machen if you look at there series. He also gave a prime liston arguebably his toughest fights bloodying and breaking listons nose, and more than gaining listons respect. Liston visited Cleveland in the hospital in 64 when williams was shot. Williams also twice defeated on points 6'4 ranked contender billy daniels who looked like a fair boxer againt clay. All the contenders who were willing to challenge williams, no matter the outcome they left the ring with a new respect for cleveland.

 

Well, fellow poster here OLD FOGEY scored it for Machen by one point. He has a lot of credibility and it's worth noting that he's old-school, meaning he probably tends to favor aggression when scoring, but even at that, he thought Liston didn't do enough.

 

Machen above Byrd's resume?

 

Old Fogey had it 7 rounds to 5 Liston. Also, every ringsider and non bias fan that I have ever heard as scored the fight had liston Winning the fight clearly. There was no controvery. The AP had liston winning 10 out of the 12 rounds. Start a new thread and ask random posters to score the fight if you dont think liston won.

 

Bad style matchup for Joe. Ali said that Liston was much quicker than Foreman. His very quick and very heavy jab would be too much for the very slow starting Joe. Once he got that jab on target those monster hooks would be right behind it. Liston by early rd TKO.

 

although liston is fast and has the assets to turn fraizers lights out ...liston could also shell up when the punches started to fly ... if fraizer came in and could bob and weave the hell out of listons jab ...it'd be a long night

 

Prime Joe Frazier, 1967 - 1970 would KO both Liston and Foreman inside 12 rounds. Both men would have a hard time trying to push off and shove this version of Joe Frazier. Let's not resort to using the 1973 overweight, past-it Frazier vs Foreman analogy that everyone on this forum seems to reference with quick conclusions against Frazier.

I do think that Liston and Foreman could have the prime Frazier on the canvas early in the fight but both men would be hard pressed to keep Frazier on the mat. Liston has the better jab than Foreman, while Foreman has a harder right hand.

The only Frazier that both of these two fighters could beat and knock out would be the post 1975 Manilla Frazier. It took Foreman 5 rounds in 1976 to TKO a severely depleted, contact lens wearing Frazier, in slightly more competitive fight.

 

Which big ,hard punching heavyweight did Frazier ko?

 

I disagree, Take the March 1971 Frazier, the superfight Frazier. In my opinion his best ever fight by far. Then match that guy with the Sonny Liston who KO'ed Patterson (first fight), and the same 1973 Foreman who crushed Frazier. You still have a extremely tough row for Joe to hoe in any case. He is too slow a starter, too small, and gets hit too much early, before his heart and condition become a factor. I have a hard time imagining any coming forward smaller fighter surviving more than a few rds with those two men. To include Marciano, or Tyson. (Dempsey and Louis would box till they tired.)

 

Floyd Patterson was scared before he even got out of the dressing room. I believe he could have shown much more against Liston if his head was on straight. Joe Frazier wasn't afraid of anybody. Patterson and Frazier are similar in stature but different as fighters. Most importantly, there's a big difference between the Frazier from 1967 - 1970 and the post FOTC Frazier.

I believe the young Frazier would be too much for Liston and Foreman to handle and they would both tire from trying to keep Frazier at bay.
I'll agree with most and say that Liston and Foreman could put Joe away early, but unlikely againt the pre FOTC version.

Liston was one inch taller than Frazier, so I fail to see where height would be a factor. Frazier was a much faster fighter than most people give him credit for. Watch the FOTC and look at how many shots Ali missed in the opening rounds against Frazier. Ali still landed some hard jabs and right crosses but Joe's head movement was effective and making him miss. This post exile Ali is light years quicker than Liston and Foreman, so I can't see where Joe would be such an easy opponent for both men every time. I'd pick Joe Frazier pre FOTC, to wear both Liston and Foreman down and stop them inside 10 rounds.
Post FOTC Joe Frazier got KO'd by Foreman in 2 rounds, and Liston would probably do the same. Watch the interview after the Kingston fight and tell me how much Foreman has left in the tank.

 

Yes Ali did miss quite a bit early in the fight,but he managed to conect with one or two later ,have a look at pics of Fraziers face after the fight.You said Frazier kos both Liston and Foreman,I asked you which big heavy hitter Frazier kod,for you to base that statement on? Still waiting for your answer.