Joe Frazier vs. Sonny Liston

Respect to you for your opinion. I'm not basing my conclusion on the different type of punchers Frazier faced. My conclusion is based on the fighter that I saw in the late 1960's, pre FOTC. There's no doubting that Bonavena, Chuvalo, Quarry, Bugner and Manuel Ramos aren't the big punchers that Foreman, Liston, Lyle and Shavers were.

Lyle found excuses not to get in the ring with Frazier and the same goes for Shavers. Correct me if I'm wrong but Lyle and Shavers were KO'd by Quarry, who was twice beaten by Frazier. There's also a reason why Foreman avoided the immediate rematch clause with Frazier. Foreman himself said later in his career that he was fearful of Frazier making it out of the second round in their first fight. He was all but punched out after the fight which is clearly evident in the post fight interview with Don Dunphy. Who knows what would have happened had Frazier made it out of the second round i 1973. Maybe Foreman puts him to sleep for good, or Joe warms up and starts to wear down a tired Foreman.

As for Sonny Liston, I've heard stories from both sides saying Frazier ducked Liston and vice-versa. Remember, Sonny is not that much taller than Frazier and I'd say nowhere near as fast as Frazier. Don't use Floyd Patterson as a measuring stick, when analizing a fight between Liston and Frazier. They are two different shorter fighters that boxed differently.

Neither Foreman, Liston, Lyle or Shavers would KO the 1967 - 1970 Joe Frazier. Infact, only Liston and Foreman have a chance at knocking Frazier out early in the fight. It's fair to say that both Liston and Foreman could have Joe in trouble early putting him on the canvas a couple of times in the early rounds. At the same time, I think it's unfair and unjust to always conclude that Frazier would get destroyed by the big punchers, especially Liston and Foreman based on one performance, Kingston 1973. Foreman himself said Ali was one of the hardest punchers he ever faced and he was knocked out in 8 rounds. In 41 rounds, Frazier was never dropped against Ali and kept the pressure on him for the most part.

Facial swelling is also attributed to breathing and sinus activity aside from punching. Notice that Frazier always puffed through his nose which medically overhabituates the sinus cavitity, accelerating the swelling. Ali always puffed through his mouth which uses more energy and rarely did ali puff around the eyes.

 

Facial swelling during a fight is usually attributed to catching punches.Im not saying Frazier had a glass jaw or that he couldnt take a punch,but the fact is the only real puncher he met kod him after bouncing him up and down like a basketball.Where is your source that Lyle and |Shavers avoided Frazier?Lyle was happy to go in with Foreman ,why would he be afraid of Frazier? Ive read that Fraziers people didnt want anything to do with an aging Liston, which seems sensible to me ,everthing to lose and little to gain,but I never read that Liston avoided Frazier,Liston was trying to get back in the title picture ,why would he avoid Joe?Liston was 6 1 ,about 1 1/2 inches taller than Frazier ,what is the significance of their height ,you have mentioned it a couple of times? Im not targeting your posts ,just agreeing to disagree.Many people here beleive Frazier is on a par with Ali,including respected posters like Chris Pontius,I personally don't,its just an opinion.

 

There was a big article that came out way back how joe frazier was ducking Mac Foster who challenged him.

 

You make a good post, but this part sounds like bull**** to me, leg massage stuff.

Frazier swelled a lot because he got hit a lot. He was always there in firing range to wear his opponent down, but that came at a price.

 

The price was a very short prime.

 

I watched an interview a while back where Ali said that Liston was faster than Foreman, or Frazier. In fact in his opinion he thought that Liston was as quick as Tyson, but without the head movement.

 

It wouldn't surprise me at all if some heavyweights were more wary of fighting Frazier than they were of facing Foreman.

All these "big punchers" people claiming he ducked, but he actually passed up a rematch with Ali and fought George Foreman instead.
Later on, when he's all washed-up and blind and just been through Manila, he takes on Foreman again, at a time when Foreman is all pissed off about losing his title and Ali is staying way clear of a rematch.
Yeah, sounds like Joe went out of his way to avoid big punchers.

 

Good post,

I will also ad that the best fighters in the heavyweight division between 1968-1973, were not necessarily big punchers to begin with. Men like Shavers, Lyle and Norton were not really a serious part of the big picture until around 1973/74 when Joe's reign was over. I also think that Frazier faced some guys that I wouldn't exactly call featherfisted. Chuvalo, Quarry and Bonavena could all bang to some degree.

 

I really think Frazier's resume blows Liston's away by a mile here. He clearly beat a larger number of ranked fighters in only 32 wins then Liston did in 50. He had a much greater amateur career, and as a pro defeated Muhammad Ali, making a greater feat than any Liston ever acheived.

 

I've trained and worked with fighters of all different backgrounds. Some of them breathed through their mouths and some breathed through their noses. The majority that breathed through their noses began swelling around the eyes and face earlier in fights opposed to those fighters that puffed through their mouths. The fighters that were more fatigued not surprisingly were the fighters that puffed through their mouths putting more direct stress on their lungs. These conclusions that I make based on swelling aren't concocted from my own opinions. These come from actually watching and coaching fights and make conclusions based on the evidence. Also, I've conversed with sports physicians and otolaryngologists(ear, nose and throat specialists) about swelling and they insist that while punching is obviously attributed to swelling, sinus activity expedites the process when breathing. Genetics also plays a factor because breathing is much more difficult in sports for an athlete with a history of sinus and nasal problems. Explain why some athletes wear nasal strips to facilitate their breathing. Jerry Rice was one of the strongest advocates of nasal strips.

Angelo Dundee and Eddie Futch clearly talked about the difference in swelling between Ali and Frazier in the "Greatest Fights Ever" broadcast of the Fight of the Century. I can't recall the exact quote but I can remember Dundee saying, "Eddie and I just learned something new in this fight. Swelling. Ali always puffed through his mouth while Joe puffed through his nose." Eddie Futch said Frazier won every round of his fight against Scrapiron Johnson but came out looking like the loser because his face was puffed and both eyes were closed.

Respect to you for your opinion Chris Pilate, but there's no BS from me when it comes to protecting the fighters and understanding the effects of punching.

 

Great matchup.

My gut feeling and perhaps personal bias says that Joe outhustles Sonny for a late KO or D.

But I wouldn't make him a strong betting favorite.

 

Ali and Foreman were the big fights for Frazier why bother with other fights aside from the money which was great with a fight against Ali.

 

Agreed, that is how I think it would go.

 

Liston would bounce Frazier around the ring with his jab, and blast him with some power shots and tko/ko Frazier by round 3 or 4. Frazier got hit too much to take what Sonny would give.