Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

I'm not upset, I'm annoyed with how you decided to literally ignore everything I've already said. I'm not a Philly based fan, I'm not even from Philadelphia. Briscoe was a great fighter, just like Frazier was. Pure coincidence I like two fighters from the same town. I will never pledge any sort of local or nationalist sentiment towards a fighter. It doesn't matter where you come from when you get in the ring.

I've already went over almost all the points you have restated in the above quotes. So I'll only go over one, I'm sick of wasting my time with you if you're not going to read what I type in response to what you say. If you're ever curious just look earlier in this thread.

However, this is your worst point. The part where you say how you think the titles Frazier held should be considered. You are not an overriding authority in this situation here. The NY title was recognized in the past to denote champions like Jack Dempsey. Joe just turned out to be the last man to hold it because of the rise of the alpha organizations in the WBC and the WBA. Ali had officially retired February 1, 1970 to allow Joe Frazier to become the recognized undisputed world heavyweight champion after he had defeated Jimmy Ellis. When Frazier beat Ellis he unified the vacant WBC, Ellis' WBA title, and his own NY title on Feb 16, 1970. The Ring even awarded Frazier their Ring belt after he unified that. What belt did Ali have? NONE! HE WAS RETIRED! So as much as you say Frazier didn't become official recognized heavyweight until he beat Ali, you're wrong. He became official after beating Jimmy Ellis. Here it annoys me how you say that it's not official till after Ali, says you? There's no official source, just you saying it. Produce some sort of information that Frazier became official heavyweight champ after beating Ali instead of Ellis and I'll back off. When Joe beat Ali he only proved that he was capable of defeating the last heavyweight champion before him. Even better Ali was in reasonable age to fight Joe and allow this sort of superfight to happen. It's silly that I even have to explain something like this.

 

Peralta was slipper. Everyone has trouble with someone, stylistically. I can give you dozens of examples with every other fighter but this would be a waste of time. Your comment on Foreman being exhausted in the 10th round as a criticism toward his stamina is a big manipulation of the facts to prove your point. That is why I responded to that. And here you agree Saddler told him to step on the gas because it was the "Last round" but it wasn't. Hence the exhausted 10th round Foreman.

 

And it wasn't just Sanders that made VITLAYS knees do funny things either, Lewis achieved that mighty feat too, as did feather fist Byrd, but you carry on clinging to your one humble point about how great VITLAY is, despite the fact he's fought 2 decent fighters and lost twice :good

I just love the fact that you're disrespecting Frazier of all people when it comes to heart, and in the same breath bigging up the Robobum brothers, as per ****ing usual. Keep it up champ, and I'll keep mocking you.

 

Thanks, it's always nice to know that rational people post here too. :good

 

Vitali has an iron chin. The rocked to his knees stuff is crap.

Sanders hit him with his best shot flush, coming in , in round one when he was at his strongest and Vitali took it well. It was the sort of shot that would have either serious dropped and hurt or flattened most great fighters, no doubt. Vitali also took bombs from Lewis and never wobbled, even when he was blinded and did not see them coming. As far as Byrd , please stop.

 

My thoughts exactly.

 

Vitali only really fought two punchers in Sanders and Lewis. I don't really think Sanders is as highly regarded as a puncher as others do (Particularly Vitali fans). Each time he faced them he was never downed but was seriously hurt. Actually, Sanders did drop him but that's another thing. Too much emphasis on determining the quality of someone's chin is based on dropping or downing someone. When a fighter is clearly hurt, they are clearly vulnerable and clearly dentable. Vitali is all of these things. Flash Knock-downing something or dropping them doesn't mean half as much, unless of course they are vividly hurt. When Vitali holds for life for the rest of a round after a Lewis uppercut and walks Lewis down to the other side. Or gets hit flushed and tries running to the other side of the ring. He is hurt. He has a good chin, but it's definitely overrated. His chin isn't iron, and his brother doesn't have the worst chin ever. His brother chin is very bad, and his chin happens to be pretty good. It hasn't been tested enough for me to think it's iron either.

Yes, Peter is a puncher too. But he's really far too limited to get at Vitali anyway.

 

Peters, Arreola, Hide... even Mahone and Williams were all punchers.

And if we are going to be truthful, every top-30 heavyweight punches hard enough to take out any man.

 

Look Sanders was a pretty decent puncher as long as his stamina lasted ... Lewis goes without saying , a huge puncher.

 

Mentioned Peters - Arreola is not a big power puncher. In fact, Arreola doesn't even refer to himself as a power puncher. He was a former Light Heavyweight that just got fat. He says he's a "combination puncher, but not a power puncher guy." Okay, I missed Hide and Mahone. I won't even go into them as fighters. I don't really consider Williams to be that big of a puncher. Let's just say he's not the calibre of power of a guy like Bonavena that Mendoza doesn't even acknowledge as a good power guy.

 

Lewis, definitely. And Lewis had him badly hurt, no doubt.

 

If Peter and Arreola were in there with crusier weight sized guys, I think their power would look even better. We saw what Hide did to crusier weights too. Some of his Ko's at cursier would make Mike Tyson nod his head.

I said Bonevenna was a solid hitter or if you prefer a 6.5 on a 1 to 10 scale of power. I also said Bonevenna failed to KO a ranked contender, and listed them all.

What is clear was Bonevenna, who did not hit in Bowe's, Klitschko's or Lewis zip code was very close to Ko'ing Frazier. Would you agree with this Peter?

Therefore my conclusion is Frazier's chin is suspect on anyone at Bonevena's power level or greater.

 

and one time at band camp .....

 

No Bonavena is no where near a 6.5 in power. He's crude and power doesn't always find its mark. That's what you fail to understand for some reason. Plenty of power guys that don't have the skills to have their power find its mark. You just look at boxrec and say Manos Ramos didn't have power because his KO ratio is 33%.

Bonavena dropped a guy with probably the best chin of any HW. Maybe McCall is superior to Chuvalo in this regard, and that's most likely just a maybe. For whatever it's worth, Charlie Goldman said Bonavena hit harder than Rocky Marciano. I think he was just boosting his current HW fighter up... but the truth on the matter is he did hit damn hard.

No, Bonevenna hits very much in those guys area codes. Bowe isn't a big hitter at all - Bonavena had a ton of raw power. He wasn't the most precise or accurate puncher, but if he landed on the mark with you you probably where in some trouble. And If Bonavena is a 6.5, then Vitali might be a 6.5 too.

 

Peter, he knows this, he just refuses to acknowledge it ....but you did put it nicely into words ...