Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

Seamus,

I prefer Daniles, and Zyglewicz! Those guys would not even be top ten cruisers today. The bald truth is Frazier did not look good vs. Daniels at all. If I had the write up, I post here.

 

Holmes took bombs from Shavers and got up and won. I think there is a HUGE difference in taking Shavers bomb over Bonevenna's. There is no doubt Holmes had a top level chin. Farr better than Frazier's. Would you agree with this, JT?

I also want to point out that Holmes was not afraid to meet punchers. He fought a laundry's list of them in Shavers 2x, Smith, Witherpsoon, Cooney, Norton, R Williams, etc...

All of whom hit harder than the best puncher Frazier beat.

 

You know as high of regard that I have of Holmes H2H, I do see him losing close to half his matches against Frazier due to stylistic reasons.

 

We need not talk Shavers tho. He was dropped by Renaldo Snipes remember, now we're a little closer to Bonavena no? Getting dropped by Bonavena means nothing in the general scheme of things here. Not like Frazier was getting dropped and stopped on a consistent basis no? Holmes was also noticably stunned by the likes of Witherspoon and Weaver. Whe talking dropped heavy, it doesn't get much heavier than the Snipes KD as he fell facefirst into the turnbuckle getting up.

Holmes has great recuperation more so than a great chin, to nitpick. I don't rate Holmes chin far better than Fraziers. That's a tad rich for me. You make out Frazier had a glass jaw, which is miles from the truth.

I have no need to debate your claims Frazier avoided punchers as you've aready been hammered on it.

Gil Clancy said Jerry Quarry was the best natural puncher he ever worked with. I'm not entirely convinced everyone on your list hits harder.

 

I agree with Mendoza and Seamus (though when it comes to Seamus' last post I'd move out of his corner and out of the arena).

Frazier would not beat Bowe, Bowe can hit like hell and was masterful on the inside -which is more rare than almost anyone would admit in the heavyweight ranks.

Frazier would not beat Lewis. If Lewis steps in lively, he would stop Frazier because he hit awfully hard, understood leverage, and was very strong physically. If Lewis stood off, Frazier would still have a tough time getting too him.

Frazier versus the Klitschko's. I remain adamant that neither Wlad nor Vitali are as highly skilled as many who should know better would have us believe. Their skill set is more limited than any 165 lb golden glover I've ever seen.

What they do is fight like a kind man handling a rabid terrier. They stand off, use their reach, and avoid the teeth. Effective? Yep. Impressive? Hell no. I'm eternally tired of hearing how "skilled" they are. They are no more skilled than the Frankestein Monster.

Barring Frazier's being able to jump up and land that hook flush, they would survive and take decisions. If the bout took place in America, the catcalls would make the ceiling cave in.

I love Frazier and would be rootin' for against all of the above, but his repertoire is too limited for him to be favored to beat any of the above. He'd go ...0-4.

 

I love Holmes but he was dropped by Kevin Issacs s well as Snipes, neither in Bonavena's class as a puncher. As far as Seamus and Mendoza actually making fun of Frazier, their positions speak for and represent themselves. I guess Joe was not as good as Purrity, Peters, Brewster, Sanders , Byrd or any of the SUPER heavyweights that exposed the Klischkos as highly flawed fighters.

SH: you are entitled to your opinion. I simply disagree. I feel the Klitschko's are a full level below Bowe or Lewis and neither would be much of a challange.

 

What do you make out of Futch apparently being convinced Frazier would beat Bowe?

 

Hey, I agree that they are a full level below Bowe and Lewis and I'd love to agree with you about their not being a challenge... but styles make fights and they are capable of controlling Frazier.

 

Did he say this around the time that Bowe defeated Holyfield or did he say it after he was fed-up with Bowe's slothfulness...?

Frazier would whip a slothful giant, but not one who was as skilled and as well-conditioned as Dick Gregory's Riddick Bowe.

 

Don't know. He was quoted by others earlier in the thread. From the way they expressed it seemed like a general reflection about the two. That Frazier would prevail peak for peak.

 

Agreed,

As much as I full heartedly respect Frazier and feel that size shouldn't be viewed as everything, we can't ignore that those men had colossal physical advantages over Joe. The only one of those four fighters that I might give smoke a chance at beating, was probably Wlad, due to his tendency to get whacked with the left hook, and this of course being Frazier's best weopon. Even still, he'd be dealing with an 8 inch height and 40 lb weight deficet. Against a lumbering buffon like Buster Mathis Sr. he might make due, but against a well conditioned and fairly skilled boxer like Wlad, or any of the others, is a different matter entirely.

 

Both Janitor and Round 15 have said that Futch favoured Frazier in this match-up. I'd like to hear more about this.

I myself have favoured Bowe earlier, but if this was Futch' take on the match-up it weighs very, very heavily for me.

 

Not to make unfair assumptions here, but its not entirely out of the realm of possibility that when Futch made this statement, he could have been doing it through the eyes of a nastolgic old man. Frazier was one of Eddie's first and biggest successes. He is also a man who Futch continues to be on a friendly basis with, even to this day, while he and Bowe parted ways on a bad note. I don't want to call a great man like Futch biased, but he has just as prone to the same human tendency to pick favorites as the rest of us are..

Food for thought.

 

Sure. But he also spoke extremely highly of Bowes talent.

There's always room to speculate. We all have bias of one sort or another but none of us have Futch boxing mind nor have we had the chance to watch these fighters as close as he has.