Joe Frazier vs. Superheavyweights

Although Futch was a true genius, he was still human and would get a bit carried away if he was in bad terms with a fighter like the time he seemed convinced that Bobick would beat Norton.

 

VK's styles is made for Frazier. Again I pose the question, who has Vitali KO'd of note? Frazier was KO'd by Foreman, the hardest punching HW in history.

 

But that's favouring your own fighter against another fighter. Nothing strange about that. Bowe and Frazier were his fighters both. He had Bowe from an earlier stage than he had Frazier (played a larger part in his development), but on the other hand Bowe was a bigger dissapointment in the end. Hard to say. I just know that I wouldn't bet against Futch' opinion here.

 

I don't want to get snagged on a sidenote. The word " buffoon" may have been a tad harsh, but I think most would agree that he was not even remotely in the same league as the four men currently being discussed, and its not something that I'm about to spend pages debating.

This looks good on the surface, but requires further detail. Lyle was a 16 fight novice who had never been in the ring with a world beater, yet he burried Mathis in two. He had a ridiculous size advantages over Quarry and Frazier, and the two fights were for the most part, one sided affairs, as was the Ali match..

Possibly the only real win of note that he has, and Chuvalo may even have been past it.

 

First off both Klitschkos fight at about 240 so we are talking about 35 pounds. Not insurmountable in the history of the heavyweight division.

Vitali is not a big puncher or a fast puncher. His stamina in fights where he is not dictating the pace is not good. While his chin is strong his defense is not. His skin tears easily. I truly believe Frazier would tear him to pieces.

Wlad's only hope would be to hope can pull a jab and hold like Ali did in their second fight and a huge part of it that would succeed would fall upon the ref. In a more neutral enviornment Joe would break him to pieces. Unlike his brother Wlad has the power to hurt anyone but his knowledge of his own china chin makes him reluctant to throw the punches and expose himself.

 

Some points

1. In the modern age Frazier would likely add 15-20lbs of muscle mass and be a solid 220-225lbs
2. Ali wasnt far off a Super HW, at 6'3 and an 80inch reach
3. Vitali isnt a big puncher nowhere near a Foreman, Lennox/Wlad are near but Wlad is nowhere near as aggressive
4. All would be forced to fight at a faster pace than they like, forced to fight on the inside which they dont like

I think Lennox beats, the others would fight close fights with him

 

Fair argument.

 

I think Fraziers workrate is what sets him apart from the bigger heavyweights and in my opinion gives him the win against the Klitschkos and Bowe. Alot of these super heavys would seriously struggle with the pace that Frazier would set.

Lewis would be a much closer affair and one which i really cant decide who would win to be honest.

 

HE, there is a huge difference. Holmes proved he could get up from bombs from Shavers and win. Frazier was up and down like a yo-yo vs. the only big puncher he fought in Foreman, and it did not take Foreman long to catch or hurt Frazier. Foreman was a wild swinger type. Frazier's looked like a sitting duck. Also, Holmes had far more fights than Frazier did, and fought a much larger amount of big punchers.

If Frazier fought as often as Holmes did, or meet the same punchers, he's likely down a good bit more, and suffers additional KO defeats. There should not be much debate here on this sentence.

Holmes could get on his bike, and jab his way to victory vs the Shavers of boxing. Frazier can not, has to get them out before then get him by standing toe to toe. By the way none of the super heavyweights have to stand toe to toe. They could box or slug depending on the circumstance.

Frazier was a one great one-dimensional fighter. He wasn't going to out box top level guys. His jab was average, and his right hand was average. I am being kind by calling them acerage. With Frazier it was mostly the hook. The uppercut which is a good punch for a fighter of Frazier's style was hardly used at all by Frazier.

Lastly, the hook has limited range, and losses striking distance when it has to reach up. Pretty much every heavyweight here is 6'5" or greater. Frazier is going to have to get past their jabs, avoid the right cross coming in, land, not be counted, avoid being owned in the clinch, or pushed off to be re-set, then attempt to circumnavigate the same challenges over and over to land his hook. If Frazier had a top level chin, and didn't swell up like he did his chances would be better. But as the film and record shows, he did not.

 

1 ) Frazier got fat at 215. He simply did not have the frame to carry 220-225 without losing flexibility, speed and stamina. Maybe he would hit a tad harder, but the trade off would work against him.

2 ) Mostly agree, but Ali's best weight was 209-215, and a key point, Ali was not a big punch guy. Frazier could afford to get in there and take some shots when matched vs Ali, but Klitschko, Lewis, and Bowe hit harder than Ali does. I might add these super heavies don't take breaks on the ropes as Ali sometimes did, which is where Frazier did his best work.

3 ) Vitlai looks like a big puncher when he's in there with cruiser weight sized guys. Hide and Norris lasted less than three combined rounds vs. Vitali. While Wlad isn't aggressive, he doesn't need to be. Skilled punchers with speed and reach automatically get respect in the ring. Frazier was a slow starter, and I do not think he would press it nearly as much in these matches as he did vs. smaller boxers without a big punch.

 

Mendoza, I give you credit for being a gentleman through out this whole thread. I do understand the points you make. I just feel Frazier was basically better than you do. I can agree to disagree since your points are well thought out and are not over the top. This is what makes fun threads.

 

1967 - 1970 Joe Frazier beats all of these guys inside 15 rounds. In fact, I'd bet on this version of Joe to stop them all inside 12 rounds. None of these superheavyweights would be able to handle Joe's body shots, pace, pressure and head movement.

They probably all have much better luck against the 1973 version of Frazier, but none of them are knocking him out as quick as Foreman did. I'd bet on Lennox Lewis to dispatch this version of Frazier perhaps inside 6 rounds if he keeps Joe on the outside and attacks him somewhat like George did.

 

Agreed.

 

I really and truly wish I could agree with you. My head tells me otherwise.