Joe frazier was better than marciano in everything

Ali ('71) clinched enough and moved enough to beat Liston. Frazier was chasing and cutting off the ring on him all night, so let's not understate what Frazier was able to do.

I maintain that Ali will always have trouble with volume pressure fighters that cut off the ring and get in his chest.

Ali could be hit and caught in '66-'67, especially by the style I described. It's the guys who stayed at range and tried to time him and box with him that got chopped up.

Also, don't forget Liston displayed trouble with movers and awkward boxers, and didn't always catch his man, and those guys weren't nearly as good as Ali was...

I say Ali ties him up (smartly), moves enough, and is fast enough to beat Liston.

 

You have failed to address any of the points made that contradict your opinion.

And your entire argument is there for all to see.

As you can see, most have already made their judgment.

:hi:

 

In 1964, Liston quit after six rounds with a few bruises, a little cut and a sore shoulder. Just flat out quit.
It's hard to have much faith in his chances against a '71 Ali.

 

One reason why I don´t see why people rank Liston so high. There are fighters who did more who are rarely as high ranked as him.

 

I would not give Rocky a chance against Joe fraser. Look back at rocky's fights against Charles, Moore and cockell look how many punches he landed against light heavies before he finally stopped them. Rocky was hurt by Walcott the only 195 pounder he met who was world class, okay old at 38, but not shot like joe louis. The other guys he fought for the heavyweight title could all make light heavy. Except Cockell who had a thyroid disorder that turned him into a fat boy from a once average light heavy.

Rocky finished all his championship oppentents with stamina. Even the Walcott fight where he was hurt in the 1st, 7th and 12th and well behind on points. Walcott was old went for a breather on his bike like he had done twice before in the fight and rocky caught up with him. Great example if you watch the whole fight of applying pressure.

Given Randy turpin at 162 stopped don Cockell, how many punches do you think he would take from fraser? Yes one.

Rocky style meant sooner or later he would catch you with a punch you did not see due to the sheer numbers. The fact he ground down his oppentents shows he did not have a great single power shot. Put six 180 pound fights in with fraser how long would they last.
Charles 24 rounds, Walcott 13, Cockell 9, La Starza 11, Walcott 2 the dive rumoured is perhaps true (to be honest I am not sure have seen the footage).
57 rounds, 7 fights against guys of a combined age 241/7, 34 and average fight weight of 185. Rocky wins hands down on stamina with fraser, punching power no chance, defence Rocky. Joe was a slow starter, once it got going i would switch to Joe. Heart nothing between them. Punch resistance is a hard one, Walcott could punch as could Moore. I favour Fraser as only 210+ guys put him down. Rocky goes down all night with fraser, how often would he get up is the question. I think Fraser's single shot power does it.

If you look at Rocky's record most of his oppentents had lost two or more of their last six fights. Charles and Walcott as heavyweights were fame for beating or nearly beating an old shot Joe Louis. Moore was Rocky's best win and he was 42. The title challengers about in rocky's time blew their chances being inconsistent. I to rated the first Walcott win even though Walcott was a bit cocky, a bit chinny and a bit old as a fighter. He lost a few times in his career at the highest level due to lapses of concentration a good example is the second louis fight when he was quicker than when he fought rocky. In a nutshell Walcott was really talented but flawed. i think he would of got far further in the Ali times than Rocky.

 

To some extent I have always had many of these same thoughts. I will never depribe Marciano of his rightful credit to a very exceptional legacy. But his style, physical attributes and performances against declining or limited opponents have always left some doubt as to how he'd fair against other men.

 

These are the same type of doubts that many contemporary observers harboured.

What they failed to fully apreciate was the awkwardness and unpredictability of his style, and his ability to keep an oponent outside their comfort zone for every second of every round.

 

They know that the fight will never happen so their predictions can never be put to the test.

That knowledge can breed a degree of surety that you never get with a fight in the real world.

 

mag1965 Rocky today with a next day weighin would be a light heavy. Calzaghe used to get in the ring 178 after a 168 weighin. Rocky had no problem getting in the ring 184.

 

If you think that Marciano had no trouble making 184lbs then you dont know much about his training regime.

 

Agreed Muchmoore, I've obviously that a rhythm breaker that was totally unpredictable like Walcott could trouble Frazier. The unpredictable versus the predictable. Makes for a good match and I see Frazier coming out most times but Walcott could upset him no doubt.

 

Through observation alone Rocky's chin is definitely superior. Rocky was knocked down by sneak punchers in two fighters that could punch. He didn't see either punch coming and both were traps of sorts.

Frazier was down in his first fight. Not sure if there was a mandatory eight count but according to boxrec he was down 8 seconds. Discluding the Foreman fight, Frazier was still on the canvas more times and for more time than Marciano. His chin wasn't as good. I've never seen Rocky rubbery legged on film, but Manos Ramos wobbles Frazier. Do the math...

 

Would'a....could'a...should'a......Rocky Marciano....Champ from 1952-1956.....49-0...43 Ko's....