Joe Frazier: Where Do You Rate Him?

As an atg hw.

 

FRAZIER





Holyfield


Tyson



Liston

 

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Sonny
5. Lewis
6. Foreman

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Seeing as others have also posted beyond where he places on their lists so you can see who he ranks ahead; for what it's worth, the list of my list is:

8. Rock
9. Johnson
10. Jeffries
11. Dempsey
12. Evan Fields
13. Wills
14. Iron Mike
15. Walcott
16. Patterson
17. Schmeling
18. Wlad
19. Jackson
20. Charles
21. Langford
22. Bowe
23. Tunney
24. Jack Sharkey
25. Baer
26. Jeannette
27. Corbett
28. Ingo
29. Norton
30. Witherspoon

(Needs some work, I know. Feedback positive or negative is much appreciated)

 

the first 7 look ok to me

 

8th behind ali louis holmes tyson holyfield foreman and lewis

 

What are your criterias?

I have a hard time seeing Sonny that high and Marciano that low. I also don´t think there is much between Wlacott and Charles. Why no Fitzsimmons in there? He deserves it more than Corbett. What about Archie Moore? His hw resume is more impressive as Witherspoon´s or Ingo´s for example.

Having said that, you have the right names in your Top20, I don´t agree with the order a bit but it looks good. The Top30, however, needs some work. I don´t think Ingo, Norton or Witherspoon should be there. Fitzsimmons, Moore, H. Johnson, Ray, Loughran, Greb, McVey are all more deserving.

 

Really?

I find that fighters with incredible heart tend to get overrated, especially in H2H terms. Just like Holyfield, Frazier had amazing heart, but just like Holy, he lost four out of frive against the two best fighters of his era. of course he won the fight of the century, which was a huge creation of unique historic circumstances more then a fight between the two best HW's of the century. As Foreman and Norton showed, both Ali and Frazier were vulnerable.

Smoking Joe had a spectacular career, but I rate him below Holmes, dominating for seven years is harder to achieve than one immortal win over an ATG.

 

AS high pound for pound at heavyweight as I do anyone ... exceptional fighter.

 

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I agree that Liston is below Frazier. He beat about as many contenders, but doesn't have as good a win and Joe never surrendered like he did.

Tyson is trickier. He doesn't have as good a win (of course), but he beat more contenders and in more dominating fashion. Perhaps Joe deserves the benefit of a doubt here, though, since he never really let himself down.

Holyfield's best win (Tyson) isn't as good as Frazier's best, but it's not terribly far away. Also, Holy wasn't ever dominated when remotely near his prime (which Joe of course was), he beat more contenders and probably proved himself against more different styles. I'd probably have him right ahead of Joe.

So: Holyfield, Frazier, Tyson, Liston. He should make my top 10, but I think he's overrated rather than underrated. He's 1-4 against his two outstanding opponents and in only one of those losses was he clearly past his prime. He's 1-2 against Ali despite being closer to his prime in every one of their fights and arguably having the stylistic advantage. He's also quite unproven against punchers and was demolished by the only really big puncher he faced.

 

A brief but very impressive career, comparable to Liston and Marciano in terms of overall competition.

Top 10 Record 9-4 Top 5: 5-4

Jerry Quarry#4
Joe Bugner#8
Muhammad Ali#1
Bob Foster LHW Champion
Jimmy Ellis#2
Jerery Quarry#3
Oscar Bonavena#6
George Chuvalo#8
Oscar Bonavena #7

Other Strong Wins:

Doug Jones
Eddie Machen
Jimmy Ellis
Buster Mathis

 

I would like to see how some of these other guys do with one eye...:conf...Foreman even had that monocle to aid him.

 

Foreman without a monocle... What a crazy thought. Like Samson without his hair or Thor without his hammer or Boxed Ears without Photoshop. Just too bizarre to even imagine.

 

No boxer is a number to me, but if I did rate them, I'd rate them as "boxers" as not just as "winners". It's too easy to raise or lower "rankings" by citing losses like the Foreman loss, even though that has nothing to do with Joe at his best. The courage it takes to rematch someone who blew you out in a round, or a few rounds, like Patterson and Frazier did with Liston and Foreman, is remarkable. That's why I find it hard to respect boxers who dodged other boxers because of their race, when there are guys out there who refused to dodge the monsters who pummeled them. The training guys like Frazier, Marciano, Hagler and many others subjected themselves to increases their legacies to me.

It may be because I just had to study a ridiculous amount of Emerson, though. :good

 

I don't think beating Tyson is even Holyfield's best win. I suppose it is debatable.
But I certainly don't see how its anywhere near as good as Frazier beating Ali.

Holyfiled-Tyson was a big win because it was a HUGE UPSET, a fighter who'd been written off as over-the-hill and damaged goods beating a dangerous KO artist who was supposed to have made short work of him. It was a big fight, big box office names involved, but in no way does beating Tyson even begin to compare to beating Ali.