Joe Frazier's career, without Ali

Not if Ali never existed.

That's what the guy asked in the first post. What if Ali never fought.

Without Ali, there's no Miami Beach quitting on the stool. There's no Lewiston, Maine phantom punch.

It's Liston versus Ernie Terrell. There's Liston versus Henry Cooper. Maybe Liston-Chuvalo. Not a whole lot going on before 1967 and Frazier.

 

I'm not saying Frazier beats Foreman in 1970 (when Foreman fought Chuvalo) or 1971, but Frazier took a pretty severe beating against Ali in 1971 and was in the hospital for a very long time and didn't fight for a year, and Durham brought him back very easy because Joe got the worst of that first Ali fight (physically).

And Foreman got a lot of experience before meeting Frazier in 1973. Sometimes fighting a guy when he's still green pays off. Larry Holmes fought quite a few names before they had much experience.

George didn't always look great in 1970 or 1971.

If Joe hadn't have fought Ali in 1971, and he fought Foreman in George's 23rd or 24th fight instead of Foreman's 38th fight (after Joe took that beating from Ali), who knows.

 

If Ali never existed, there's no split titles. There's no heavyweight tournament.

There's just Sonny Liston. Who beats Liston to take the title from 1964 until Frazier gets there in 1967? Anybody?

Hell, Frazier might not do it, either. But I'm assuming he would.

 

It's a style thing. Joe like most sluggers would outmuscle and impose his strength and will over his opponents. Under no circumstances could he do this vs a fighter with such imposing physical strength, speed and power. Add to it a ramrod jab.

 

Fair comment. As strange as it sounds given the one-sided nature of the beatings dealt out by George but take out the FotC and you have a different Joe. A fit Frazier without the health issues brought on by FotC and who was mentally ready to rumble rather than sing might have made it competitive for a few rounds. And he would not, without Ali, have climbed the mountain of winning the biggest fight ever so would presumably have greater hunger.

If he does hang in there for 5 or 6 rounds and the ref gets strict on pushing, the odds might just start to tip in Joe's favour. It's a big 'if' as the styles mesh well for George but this is a fight that Joe could've (not would've or even should've) won.

 

A greener Foreman along with a hungry peaking Smokin Joe the fight may go a bit different. I don`t know how that may play out.

 

No Frazier does well vs prime Foreman. Two crushing ko losses do not magically become a Frazier win.

 

He's talking a greener Foreman as well.

 

Absolutely. It`s hard to say how ready Foreman would have been in `70 or `71. We know he could always punch so I`m not saying he couldn`t stop Joe but there would be some doubt if you change those circumstances.

 

I`m not saying Frazier magically wins but if you factor different circumstances there would be some doubt about the outcome. Frazier wouldn`t of had all those ring miles and wear and tear along with Foreman perhaps being little too green at that stage. Foreman may get to him anyway but I don`t think it would be that easy as it looked in `73.

 

So lets say the Frazier that entered the ring for the FOC against Ali had turned up to defend against Foreman around '71 to '73 do people still think the outcome would have been as decisive for George?
Or would the style issue still have given George as devastating a win no matter which Frazier turned up?

 

I don't know if Foreman's team would've moved him any quicker, either.

HOWEVER (big however), let's say Frazier beats Liston for the title around 1967. Foreman became friends with Liston around 1968, after first turning pro, when he served as Liston's sparring partner. Some of the guys training Foreman back then also were Liston's trainers, like Dick Sadler.

If Frazier had been the dominant champ post-Liston (with no Ali ever having ever fought) ... and Frazier's team offered the Olympic gold medalist a title shot after George beat Chuvalo in 1970, whose to say that Sadler wouldn't have wanted to get revenge on Frazier with his young fighter Foreman?

Gold medalist Frazier fought for a title in his 20th pro fight (against Mathis) three years after turning pro in 1965. Gold medalist Ali fought Liston for the title in his 20th pro fight just three years after turning pro. Silver medalist Ingemar Johansson fought for the title in his 22nd pro fight against Patterson. Ed Sanders, the 1952 Gold medalist, was moved TOO fast and was dead by his ninth fight. Pete Rademacher, the 1956 medalist, fought for the title in his first pro fight.

Olympians were being moved much quicker at that time. Foreman was sort of the oddball who waited until nearly his 40th pro fight before fighting for the title.

Foreman stopped Chuvalo in his 22nd pro fight. It was a pretty high-profile fight. Chuvalo was coming off a pretty big KO win over highly rated Jerry Quarry.

If Frazier had run thru the usual suspects in the late 1960s, I could see them offering young George Foreman a title fight in 1970 or early 1971. Frazier wouldn't have had any big money fights waiting for him. Foreman was very well known after the Olympics. Without the WBA tournament, Ellis probably wouldn't have been in the picture. (Ellis moved up to heavyweight and got a win over Johnny Persol in early 67, which put him in the tourney, and three fights later he had a belt. No tourney, and none of those fights with Bonavena or Martin or Quarry probably happen.)

I could see Frazier-Foreman happening in late 1970 or early 1971. Chuvalo and Quarry were top contenders. And Foreman had just beaten Chuvalo. Frazier probably would've already faced Chuvalo and Quarry (maybe more than once). Foreman would've been up.

 

Joe beats an ageing Liston in the late sixties. Prime for prime a different matter,maybe. As I've said before,though,on another thread it's quite feasible that Ernie Terrel could beat an old Sonny first.

 

I could see what you're saying, based on Ernie's performance against Cleveland Williams. I wouldn't take Terrell over Liston in a 15-round fight. But, if Ernie managed to last all 15 rounds and win a decision, I don't think he could do it twice.

I think Liston would've reigned until at least Frazier came on the scene.

Even after his image was destroyed by Ali, Sonny was still a destructive fighter. Without Ali taking him down, Liston's rep as dominant champ would've been insane by the mid 60s.