Joe Frazier's management style- READ THE FULL FIRST POST

If that doesn't work, I don't know what will

 

Great post. I think one could in fact argue that one of the mistakes made by Frazier was their LACK of caution, both in terms of throwing him in with tough contenders VERY early on and then making some very harsh opponent choices (Foreman being a prime example).

The fact is that Frazier had perhaps the toughest competition for a boxer who only had 37 pro fights of all the linear heavyweight champions. Foreman had had 37 pro fights before he even challenged for the title?

Also-

Liston: old and TOTALLY discredited after the Ali fights. Blacklisted by all the reputable promoters and generally considered an embarassment to the sport. He also had no wins from 1967-1969 to justify a fight with Frazier. Liston got the oblivion he deserved in the last part of his career.

Norton: Frazier's sparring partner who he had always dominated in their sparring matches. Norton and everyone else knew that he was no match for Frazier.

Shavers: never really a genuine contender until the second half of the 1970s. In 1972, the year Frazier had the most spare time on his hands, Shavers' resume was totally non-existant. He didn't have any wins over top 20 contenders, let alone top 10 contenders. Then, around the time (Dec 1973 to Dec 1974) Frazier lost to Ali in their second bout and was on the comeback trail for a second time, Shavers went 1-2-1, including a KO loss to Quarry and a decision loss to Bob Stallings. Three nothing fights later, he gets beaten by Ron Lyle. He only really becomes a force in 1976: the year when Frazier loses to Foreman and retires.

On the other hand, Frazier DID go on to fight Jerry Quarry, the man who beat Shavers. I know you have a low opinion of Quarry, but given he wiped out Shavers in a totally one-sided demolition job, surely he was a better opponent at that time than Shavers?

Ron Lyle: again, the first big name opponent he faced was Jerry Quarry and against Jerry Quarry won. Some more low-level fights later, he draws with Gregorio Peralta. Four more obscure fights later (including a loss to the then-unknown Jimmy Young) and Lyle is catapulted in to face Ali as an "easy" opponent; he is given LONG odds, which shows how lowly regarded Lyle was at that point (meanwhile Frazier is fighting the man who beat Lyle, Quarry) with him being seen as another warm-up after Wepner. Lyle does far better than expected and gains a huge amount of credibility against Ali.

By this point, Frazier is getting ready for his last hurrah against Ali and has no reason to fight a boxer on a two-fight losing streak in the interim. He loses to Ali and goes on to fight Foreman, who was just a LITTLE bit more highly regarded than Lyle at this point. Was Frazier supposed to duck Foreman, who'd just beaten Lyle?

No way Frazier can be accused of ducking any of those boxers. Case closed.

 

This post basically says it all.
Nice job..

 

Between this and Chris n' MF's posts the fat lady is howling.

 

The WBA was not very well thought of during the mid-sixties being involved with stripping Ali of titles.

Ring Magazine continued to recognize Ali as champ for a long time in the 60's.

So, Frazier's management got the Frazier-Mathis fight recognized a "New York title" fight, and they would meet the winner of the WBA eight fighter tourney.

I.e, beat one-guy and you are the champ, or have to beat 3 guys to be champ.

So you had a big money fight with the WBA Champ, or a huge money fight if Ali came back in 1969 or so.

 

No, Frazier really had little reason to fight Liston. But Liston was ranked in the top 10 in 1969 and 1970, though.

Well, he did. Ellis had lost to Bugner and, you guessed it, Lyle when Frazier beat him for the second time.

I agree. But I would have liked to see him against Lyle, though. It would have made a good statement to beat Lyle after losing to Foreman IMO. And giving Bugner instead of Ellis (whom Bugner recently had beaten) a rematch would have looked nice as well.

But this is not much more than nitpicking, really. Facing Foreman (twice), Ali (twice), Bugner, Quarry and Ellis (although declining) during a timespan of 3,5 years is hardly the easiest road one can take.

I do think that he could have made greater statements in his comebacks from the losses to Ali respective Foreman than taking on two guys he had already comfortably beaten, and one of them over the hill at that. But this is nitpicking a bit and certainly doesn't mean he ducked anyone.

 

Thanks. I thinK Sanders and Brewster were much harder hitters, than Bonevana and Ramos, and likely more accomplished in the ring. Wlad picked both Sanders and a Brewster when he did not have to. Fraizer to me never took such a risk. Who did Frazier ever TKO via Knockdown? No punchers at all.

This I agree on. Fraizer was moved quickly, but like most swarmers he matured into his style quickly. Off topic, I think Povetkin is being moved as fast as Frazier, and unlike Frazier's managment, they won't opt out of tournaments to get a #1 rank, nor will they avoid punchers.

I pretty much agree that Frazier fought more or less the best out there in the mid to late 1960's. I do think missing out on the WBA toruney is suspect, and picking soft marks for back to back title defenses, then picking past their best verisions of Quarry and Ellis, were not to impressive while the likes of Shavers, Lyle and Norton were out there. Those are my points. A debate works both ways.

Since Frazier legacy is going 1-4, 3 KO losses vs these two, it is a vaild point.

Quite a few would be able to go 1-4, or better ( 2-3 ). Keep in mind Fazier caught Ali after a layoff, and Ali was very beatable in the mid 70's.

A few. Pre 1920, many fighters fought the best or 2nd best in an era multiple times. Holyfield in the 1990's is a good example as well. Bowe 3x, Lewis 2x, and Tyson 2x is greater than Ali 3x and Foreman 2x

It was styles and Ali slowing down, that made them close. But, you could say Bonevenna deserved a draw vs Fraizer on a 10 point must scring system, and Frazier was lucky to draw vs Cummings. I think Frazier did not recive any gift wins. The reverse might be more true.

Holy was 1-3-1 vs Bowe and Lewis. But don't foreget 2-0 vs Tyson, or beating older versions of Foreman and Holmes, and pretty good Morrer.

That said I will read Maracino_Frazier first post. I did not have time to read it all.

 

Quite a few very good fighters would disagree.

 

I think Pennsylvania and maybe a 3rd U.S. state initially recognized Joe as champ.

The NYSAC had been involved in some of those multiple-champs situations with the middleweights back in the 40's & 50's too.

 

Ya if it were a chess match, it would have been check-mate some time ago. I've joined this discussion late, but I have a hard time fathoming how anyone could knock Frazier's comp with respect to power punchers when he fought Foreman twice. I mean come on, how many fighters have wanted to enter the ring with that monster more than once?

And personally I'm still of the opinion that he likely would have beaten Ali in a rematch, as to me, it seems more like Foreman beat himself in Africa, rather an Ali beat him. Result is still the same and I'm not trying to discredit Ali in anyway, but if Foreman had learned to pace himself better, the result may have been different.

 

I have re-read Marciano_Frazier’s initial post ( not all of it could be re-posted here due to character limit ), and he has his share of good points. I take it many liked his examples of Frazier facing highly ranked ring magazine contenders on his way up in the 1960's? Do we all agree here? Yes or no?

Read on. Can others ( M_F, John Thomas, and Chris ) admit the reverse? I see a pattern of Frazier not picking or facing higher ranked big punchers besides Foreman in the 1970’s, and not facing the biggest pucnhers in the 60's ( Patterson, Liston, or Mac Foster )

Let us fully examine them fairly, and like Marciano_Frazier's use Ring Magazine Annual ratings as the benchmark for the 1970's to see if Frazier avoided matches with higher ranked pucnhers.

This is fair:

1972. Frazier picked two non-ranked top ten guys in 1972 in Stander and Daniels. Why?

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were ranked fighters in 1972, They were also punchers. Check the annual ratings:


Frazier, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Jimmy Ellis
4. Ron Lyle
5. Floyd Patterson
6. Ernie Terrell
7. Jose Roman
8. Joe Bugner
9. Ken Norton
10. Jose Luis Garcia

In 1973, Fraizer lost to Foreman badly, then picked gun shy - light punching Bugner, while punchers such as

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were all rated higher annually by Ring Magazine.

George Foreman, Champion

1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ken Norton
4. Jerry Quarry
5. Ron Lyle
6. Earnie Shavers
7. Oscar Bonavena
8. Joe Bugner
9. Jimmy Ellis
10. Chuck Wepner

1974: Why pick Quarry again? At least Quarry was ranked, yet as we can see

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were once again rated higher.

Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. George Foreman
2. Joe Frazier
3. Ron Lyle
4. Oscar Bonavena
5. Joe Bugner
6. Ken Norton
7. Jerry Quarry
8. Chuck Wepner
9. Henry Clark
10. Larry Middleton

1975, and this one’s really bad. Why pick a washed up Ellis? Ellis, like Stander and Daniels was not annually ring ranked. Ellis was done. Once again, punchers like

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were highly ranked. If Frazier wanted to pass Norton, a fight with Lyle or Shavers might have done it. Or why not pick Norton? Heck, Bobbick who really was not that good, had a decent enough right hand and he would have been a much better choice then Ellis.

Muhammad Ali, Champion

1. Ken Norton
2. Jimmy Young
3. Joe Frazier
4. George Foreman
5. Ron Lyle
6. Earnie Shavers
7. Duane Bobick
8. Joe Bugner
9. Chuck Wepner
10. Randy Neumann

Summary: Using ring ranking, fights with Patterson, Shavers, Lyle, and Norton could have been made and were all higher rated that ANYONE Frazier fought with the exception of Foreman. I have little doubt Frazier management avoided punchers in the 1970's. I am twisitng no facts here at all. I also beleive Patterson, Shavers, Lyle, and Norton hit harder than ANYONE Frazier beat.

PS: Regarding the second Foreman vs Frazier fight in 1976, it was clear Foreman lost a lot of confidence from the Ali fight. Foreman was nearly upset by Lyle before the 2nd fight with Frazier. So perhaps Frazier’s’ team figured this time was the best to avenge a bad TKO loss. As it was, Frazier did much better the second time around, but still did not come close to beating a mentally deflated Foreman.

Anyone is welcome to reply.

 

Quarry was basically the No. 1 contender during the Spring of 1974, but Foreman wanted to fight Ali next so that fight was made for Sept. 1974 (and delayed to Oct. 1974 due to the eye cut).

Foreman put a Quarry fight "back", so they matched Frazier & Quarry for June, 1974 I guess thinking the winner would get Foreman who was favored to beat Ali. But Foreman loses so all deals are now off. (also, Frazier proceeds to beat Quarry up).

The public was really following the Ali, Frazier, Foreman triangle...and they were having their own round robin tournament.

 

Justifiably? No.

Frazier did indeed fight Ellis in March 1973, but the previous month Lyle had been fighting (and losing to) Young and in March Lyle got onto the gravy train to fight Ali. If there was a possibility of the two fighting in Spring 1975, it was Lyle who passed it up to sensibly take the Cinderalla shot at the title.

I was talking about the period after Frazier beat Ellis, during which he had a guaranteed shot at the title and no reason to risk that by going up against ANY opponent.

I think in 1976 even Joe could see he was done. It's worth noting that he took a horrible amount of punishment against Foreman in their second fight.

I quite agree. Quite possibly Frazier fought Ellis because of Ellis's name value (especially outside of the US, where his decline was not apparent) and the money that came from it.

Agreed. It's worth remembering that Frazier often took a lot of punishment in every fight and didn't usually put away opponents quickly, so he wasn't able to be highly active.

I think he probably felt that the second fight with Ali WAS going to be his big statement that he was back. After that loss, I think Frazier can be forgiven for taking familiar roads to the top, especially since an eventual fight with Ali was more or less assured.