Joe Jeannette V Jack Dempsey,Joe Louis,Jack Johnson?

You need to understand better what Johnson is doing in the ring. Opponents were free to punch Johnson. Ali held usually by wrapping his left arm around his opponents neck and grabbing their left arm and clutching tightly. Opponents could not punch in this position. That's HOLDING.

Johnson in contrast is controlling his opponents. They were free to punch but Johnson would make shots ineffective by sensing the punch and pressing the opponents elbow as it was launched. Watch Johnson Flynn as a prime example of these techniques. Flynn complained of holding but the ref stated adamantly that Johnson was NOT holding and that Flynn was always free to punch. You will see Flynn throwing body punches but Johnson is taking the steam from these blows by touching Flynns elbows as the punches are thrown. You will see Flynn bringing shot to Johnsons head but Johnson senses the blows, catches them (blocking), and immediately brings Flynns back into a control position.

Your comments concerning Johnson, unfortunately, scream of not doing due diligence in trying to understand the very high end defensive techniques he is employing.

There is a reason Johnson was thought of as a great defensive fighter by other great fighters.

 

No more threads made by me, I've finally realised its a complete waste of time and just gives haters the platform they crave to vent their hate.

The plain ignorance and down right perverse obtuseness displayed on this thread by a poster who didn't even have the guts to address the subject matter question of the thread has been astonishing.
You cannot educate pork,and casting pearls before swine is a no win situation.
No amount of primary sourced information will in any way change the dogmatic and obsessive viewpoint of such a Pavlovian phobic hater.

I had thought to provoke a worthwhile discussion about whether Joe Jeannette, one of the best of the early 20th century heavyweight gladiators could beat three of the greatest Heavyweight champions if all the respective fighters were in their primes .
Instead all I got was a torrent of posts from a moron , ignoring the question, just saying"he would do alright", and making no picks. Then repeatedly and obsessively informing me that when Langford and Jeannette fought Johnson,[who is only one of my three prospective opponents for Jeannette,] that neither Langford ,nor Jeannette were prime when they fought Johnson,as if I didn't already know that and hadn't known it for the last 50 years!
I blame myself, attempting to have a sensible conversation with a ret*rd is always going to be a singularly unrewarding experience ,and so this has proved!
I won't say I've been debating against a closed mind because for that to be the case he would have to have a mind to close!
The pure hatred that comes out of some of these muppets, so clouds their objectivity to the point that they become braying donkey's ad nauseum .
No point trying to converse with such idiocy.
In future I'll content myself with joining in threads that have some interest for me ,and provide no more opportunities for such jerks to ruin threads, with their wilful disregard for the subject matter and their boorish attempts to promote their personal likes of fighters and their manic hatred of others.[/QUOTE]

I fully agree with you. As far as I know there is only one film of Jeanette close to prime in action. I do not see performance that indicates he could beat any of the prime hwts mentioned including Johnson. Also how fighters are perceived by experts of the time is very important criteria. Only they sat at ringside watching those skills in action. There is no doubt, even in the very racist US of Johnsons time, how highly his ability was thought of.

 

mcvey, Langford made a career fighting and beating bigger men. It was common in those days for lighter weight fighters to box Hwts.

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No more threads made by me, I've finally realised its a complete waste of time and just gives haters the platform they crave to vent their hate.

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The plain ignorance and down right perverse obtuseness displayed on this thread by a poster who didn't even have the guts to address the subject matter question of the thread has been astonishing.

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You cannot educate pork,and casting pearls before swine is a no win situation.

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"Jeannette weighed 185lbs when he fought Johnson over 15 rds in March 1906"

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No amount of primary sourced information will in any way change the dogmatic and obsessive viewpoint of such a Pavlovian phobic hater.

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I had thought to provoke a worthwhile discussion about whether Joe Jeannette, one of the best of the early 20th century heavyweight gladiators could beat three of the greatest Heavyweight champions if all the respective fighters were in their primes .

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Instead all I got was a torrent of posts from a moron , ignoring the question, just saying"he would do alright", and making no picks.

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Then repeatedly and obsessively informing me that when Langford and Jeannette fought Johnson,[who is only one of my three prospective opponents for Jeannette,] that neither Langford ,nor Jeannette were prime when they fought Johnson,as if I didn't already know that and hadn't known it for the last 50 years!

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I blame myself, attempting to have a sensible conversation with a ret*rd is always going to be a singularly unrewarding experience ,and so this has proved!

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I won't say I've been debating against a closed mind because for that to be the case he would have to have a mind to close!

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The pure hatred that comes out of some of these muppets, so clouds their objectivity to the point that they become braying donkey's ad nauseum .

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No point trying to converse with such idiocy.

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In future I'll content myself with joining in threads that have some interest for me ,

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and provide no more opportunities for such jerks to ruin threads, with their wilful disregard for the subject matter and their boorish attempts to promote their personal likes of fighters and their manic hatred of others

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"Perry,

I fully agree with you. As far as I know there is only one film of Jeanette close to prime in action. I do not see performance that indicates he could beat any of the prime hwts mentioned including Johnson.

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Also how fighters are perceived by experts of the time is very important criteria.

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Only they sat at ringside watching those skills in action.
There is no doubt, even in the very racist US of Johnsons time, how highly his ability was thought of.

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mcvey, When a champion is incessantly described as "old clutch and grab,"a red light should go on regarding the describees capability for objective and unbiased discussion.

L

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I blame myself for encouraging this basket case,oh well ,live and learn.No more for me.

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An added appendix to this incorrect information from "the hater".

"Jack Johnson arranged a mid March 1906 bout with Joe Jeannette.
Johnson was listed as 28 years old,205lbs and 6'.25"tall.

Jeannette was listed as 24years old,[he was actually 26.]and 185lbs.
The Baltimore American
The Baltimore Sun
Both these papers ,and the Police Gazette said Johnson deserved the decision The Gazette stated that ," it was doubtful if Jeannette could have lasted another round." PROOF OF THE PUDDING.

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More Pudding:
Evening star., March 14, 1906, Page 9, Image 9

Heavyweight Contest Tonight.
Next In importance to the Nelson-McGovern battle In Philadelphia will be the heavy
weight scrap before the Eureka Club of Baltimore tonight, which, while the affair
has not been loudly heralded abroad, will be of national Interest nevertheless. The gladiators will be the blacks. Jack Johnson of California and Joe Jeannette of the east.
Everything that Johnson does in the ring is noted all over the country, because he is believed by many to be the only possible successor to Champion James Jeffries at this stage of affairs.
These big fellows have already met three times, each time at six rounds, and not one of the battles was satisfactory so far as an affair that was worthy to draw out all that was in either man. It certainly speaks well for Jeannette, as while he is the lighter man, a light heavyweight In fact. Johnson could do nothing decisive with him.
This time they come together for fifteen rounds and there should certainly be something doing.


Evening star., March 15, 1906, Page 9, Image 9



Johnson Got Decision.
There was a packed house at the Germania Maennerchor Hall, Baltimore, last night. The Eureka Athletic Club had billed as the star fighters of the evening Jack Johnson of California and Joe Jeannette
of New York, two big colored men. Johnson has a reputation; Jeannette Is looking for one. Johnson did not add to his reputation, and Jeannette made none they were booked to fight fifteen rounds. The exhibition of boxing was a good one. It looked as if Johnson should have stopped or put out his man in quick order
He looked to be able to do this, but there was no occasion for him to do It. He got the decision at the end of the fifteenth round and had not distressed his man.

The times dispatch., March 16, 1906, Page 7, Image 7

TAME BOXING BOUT.
Jack Johnson and Joe Jeannette Hooted By Baltimore Crowd.
BALTIMORE, MD., March 15.-The flfteen round contest to-nlght between Jack
Johnson, of Callfornla and Joe Jeannette, of New York, before the Eureka Athletlc
Club. was one of thc poorest boxing exhibltlons wltnessed for many a day. Johnson was awarded the decision at the finish amid bowls of derision from the spectators. Not at any stage of the game was elther man ln serious danger, not more than three or four effectlve blows belng
exchanged in the flfteen rounds.

 

Irrelevant really. Johnson has always been rated over Langford, Jeanette and McVea. Only you are trying to imply that somehow this was not the case. Trying to alter known history (in this case over 100 year history) is never a path that produces a positive outcome.

 

Perry, Johnson has always been rated over Langford, Jeanette and McVea Irrelevant really.

Only you are trying to imply that somehow this was not the case.

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Trying to alter known history (in this case over 100 year history) is never a path that produces a positive outcome.

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Again irrelevant. You are looking at events that occurred 100 plus years ago through today's eyes.

In those days lighter fighters fighting hwts was not a big deal. Common event. I read Gunboat Smiths interview again and he stated in those days anyone over 160 could fight as a Hwt.

History however proves out Johnsons superiority. The vast vast vast majority of writers, historians rate Johnson as Langford, Jeanette and Mcvea's superior. The filmed record also proves this out that is if one knows what he is looking at.

Just as Dempsey not fighting Wills was a complex issue the same can be said of Johnson not fighting Langford or Jeanette as Champion. A simple statement that Johnson was afraid to fight them ignores the inherit complexity of Johnsons history as champion.

 

Ive been waiting for years for Greg/Dempsey1234 to show me proof that Jeanette weighed 165 or less in 1906 as he always says. The man was a full grown adult by that point and Im supposedly to believe that in pre-steroid early 20th century America a full grown man added 20+ pounds of solid muscle in less than two years? Something tells me proof, other than "well thats what Joe Jeanette said in an interview done 40 years later" will continue to elude.

 

klompton2, I've been waiting for years for Greg/Dempsey1234 to show me proof that Jeanette weighed 165 or less in 1906 as he always says.
Maybe you should look a little deeper, supposedly you are a great pysstorian. It's there try in the available books, like Pollack, since you have thousands upon thousands of articles, the proof is somewhere in there. But of course you will deny seeing it like your partner. This is proof of your biased interpretation and spinning. I have posted proof that said Johnson was much bigger. A "studied" person such as yourself should have seen some of these reports. But you deny, deny. Let me ask you why you and partner deny that such information exists. You and yours had it all your way, now people discovered online freebie sites there is all the info that you and yours deny exists.

I will make it simple cos you and yours deny seeing what is there. Johnson weighed 185, and various accounts say he was 20-25 to 35-40 heavier, I dont believe he was as heavy as 35-40, more like 20-25pds heavier. Since math seems to one of your many weaknesses. 185 minus 20 or 25 pds puts Jennette's weight correctly at 160 to 165pds DUH!

The man was a full grown adult by that point and Im supposedly to believe that in pre-steroid early 20th century America a full grown man added 20+ pounds of solid muscle in less than two years?

Again since you are as clueless as you are in denial. First since you and yours dont factor in relevant information.
In two years as you say Jenenette would be 28yrs old. As a man mature's he puts on weight, and it's not all fat but muscle especially athlete's. Proof of that would be throughout boxing history as a fighter matures they have major problems making their original weight. I am truly surprised that you dont know that. Psst it wasnt just
"less than two years" and you know that why leave out relevant information?

Something tells me proof, other than "well thats what Joe Jeanette said in an interview done 40 years later" will continue to elude.

Please explain in your lovely way, how you "elude" contemporary reports that you have available, that show that Jennette was correct 40 yrs later.