Joe Louis and the Magnificent Seven

It appears from Jacobs moves that Hurley had convinced him Franklin was a financially viable defence.

 

Nope ,Jeffries gave an exhibition with Griffin in which he contracted to stop Griffin or Griffin would claim a $100 forfeit which he duly did.For someone so obsessed with this era,you are remarkably ill informed about it!
NB JACK JOHNSON has zero to do with this thread but we knew you would drag him in to it! WTF it's your misbegotten thread!
I have no preferences as far as a person's skin is concerned,I judge a person by their actions ,that's why I detest you!' If you want some verified quotes from Jeffries stating categorically he would never defend his title against a black man I can fill this thread up with them .Just say the word and Ill be happy to oblige!!!!
WAITING

 

Found this


"None of the near-name heavies wants any part of Elmer Ray, who in a New Orleans battle royal knocked out nine opponents with one hand tied behind his back."

"...in doing so he made of Elmer Ray a modern Sam Langford. You remember the Boston Tar Baby. He was a guy heavyweight champion Jack Johnson dodged and dodged during the six years he held the title some three decades ago. Langford tried desperately to get a bout with the champ, but Johnson never would have a part of him. Louis is that way with Ray. It is silly to say that Louis, the man who has made so many valiant defenses of the crown, is afraid of Elmer. But it is a fact that he won’t fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida."
-Middlesboro Daily News, July 26, 1947

 

Walcott had beaten Ray in March, 1947.

At this point Walcott was the #1 contender.

"it is a fact that he won't fight the burley puncher from Hastings, Florida."

What actually were the ratings at this point in the summer of 1947? I would be very surprised if Walcott wasn't rated ahead of Ray. It is possible Joe Baksi was also before he blew his chance by losing to Tandberg.

Ray could have sealed the deal by beating Walcott in March. He didn't. Janitor is making a good point. Walcott was only another contender in 1946 and 1947. Ray's victory over Walcott came on the heels of Walcott's loss to Maxim. No one knew Walcott and Maxim would later be champions.

If Louis defended against Ray, what would be the justification for bypassing Walcott?

 

Yes Langford had a contract to fight Johnson, signed in the autumn of 1908 when Johnson was just a challenger and broke, the total amount offered for the fight was $12,5000 with no expenses or film rights , in1909 now champion he decided he wanted the same size purse for his title defences as Tommy Burns had received to fight him ie $30,000.Actually Johnson never signed a contract neither did his then manager Sam Fitzpatrick ,what they did do was put their signatures at the bottom of a letter agreeing to fight Langford for $5000 whether they won against Burns or not.
Peggy Bettinson who had negotiated the arrangements on behalf of the NSC was never prepared to pay anywhere near the $30,000 that Johnson demanded once he won the title.. His earlier offer to Burns to defend against Johnson in the UK was derisory that' s why the match went to Australia Cofforth and Rixkard bid for it but neither offer was anywhere near McIntosh's.

Langford and his manager reached agreement with Hugh McIntosh to fight Johnson in Australia as part of a two fight deal the other challenger to have been Sam McVey.All parties were satisfied with the terms and the fights were agreed ,then after Johnson jumped bail, McIntosh withdrew the offer .All easily verified, I've posted the offers and McIntosh's statements explaining his withdrawal of the offer here several times.

Ask yourself these questions

Q. If White America was content for a black man to be the heavyweight champion,and by defending against another black that was guaranteed! Why did the White Hope crusade start?

Q. If two black men fighting for the heavyweight title would have drawn good crowds.Why didn't promoters put those fights on?
Why didn't Barney Curley,Tex Rickard,JimCoffroth,and Mike Jacobs make those matches?
Q.Where are the VERIFIED OFFERS for Johnson to defend against the following
Jeannette,McVey,Langford
FOR HIS ASKING PRICE OF $30,000 THAT JOHNSON TURNED DOWN?
I'VE ASKED YOU TO PRODUCE THEM MANY, MANY TIMES OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS.
YOU NEVER HAVE!!!!!! YOU NEVER WILL!!!!!

This is your cue to say the fights could have been put on in Russia ,Timbuktoo, and other just as likely venues.
WELL SHOW US THE VERIFIED OFFERS FROM PROMOTERS TO DO SO????

 

What are the facts, such as we can find, about black on black fights drawing. We know Lewis & Walcott drew well against Louis. Lighter weight fights like Robinson-Gavilan & Jack-Montgomery drew well.

Here is some more evidence. The 1976 Ring Record Book had the financial data on fights promoted by Tex Rickard back in the 1920's. There are many listed. I don't know some of the names. Two fights I know were black on black and I'll compare them with some white on white fights--

Norfolk-Siki-----$66,337
Wills-Norfolk----$56,115

Tunney-Levinsky-----$44,817
Greb-Weinert---------$48,604
Johnson-Renault-----$56,148
Tunney-Weinert------$14,706
Firpo-Brennan--------$50,755
Miske-Gibbons--------$39,392
Greb-Tunney (1922)--$59,241
Tunney-Greb (1923)--$65,322

In fairness, the 1922 Greb-Gibbons fight was a big draw at $118,762

Everyone can draw their own conclusion.

Mine is that this again doesn't give any support to the argument that black on black fights would not draw. Norfolk-Siki outdrew Greb-Tunney.

 

But I disagree with you on Louis. WWII was the main reason most of the seven you named didn't get a title shot. Ray lost his rubber match with Walcott so Walcott was the top contender and the guy who got the title shot.

Johnson is a different case and his record defending his title certainly warrants scrutiny and criticism.

My area of agreement with you is on the viewpoint that black on black fights wouldn't draw was, off the facts, more of an excuse or prejudice than anything supported by gate returns.

 

You have never posted a verified offer of $30,000 for Johnson to defend his title against the three I mentioned that Johnson turned down you know it and I know it! I challenge you once again to do so! 'Im not making any statements about two blacks drawing big gates I'm just producing the opinion made by the leading promoters of half a century in boxing.
I don't have to quote Clay's book I have loads of sources ,but since you mention him ,he does say Johnson challenged Woodman to put up a proof of good faith cash binder and gave him time to do so,Woodman failed to come up with the money, referenced ,sourced, and verified information!
Your meandering mis- spelt, and often unintelligible post makes as much sense as usual ie none!
What am I to make of the following?
"who wanted to do did strip Johnson"" Didn't you lean anything" "less threating types"


"If you want to focus on your ancestry in white America"

.My ancestory isn't in White America or any other America,my Mothers family on her Mothers side come from Denmark ,my Fathers, on his Fathers side from Germany, I've no connection with you south of the Mason Dixon line Red Necks what so ever!
People wanted Johnson to defend against white challengers that's why easy fights like,
Ketchel, Kaufman,Flynn,Moran,were made! $ 31,000 for defending against Jim Flynn who after being kod by Johnson in their first fight said"He is a great man and I was entirely outclassed".ps Flynn was unconscious for 4 minutes.lol

 

While I agree with you that Jack Johnson definitely ducked Sam Langford, I do think Louis defended his title vs the two best black heavyweights of his era Walcott and Charles, and fought Bivins in a non title fight. Louis missed out on Franklin, but that window was very short, and Louis missed out on Ray, but he lost 3 years due to the war.

 

I found an article from 1946

Louis refused to box exhibitions or even spar with Ray in 1946 claiming that Ray "didn't know how to fight an exhibition" and one of them was liable to get hurt, and in spite of Ray compiling a 50 fight winning streak

 

A question. Do I understand this correctly. Johnson got $31.000 for defending against Jim Flynn in 1912.

It just seems impossible. The fight was in Las Vegas, New Mexico, and I've been there. It is a small town today. I looked it up in the 1910 census and the population then was 3755. How in the world could such a place stage a fight in which the champion got $31,000?

It certainly seems way out of line. Fans would have to come great distances by train at best to get any kind of crowd. The entire population of the territory of New Mexico in 1912 was 322,000, and it is a big area.

I am certain there are probably sources for this purse, but are the sources reliable?

It certainly seems incredible.