Joe Louis, best P4P Heavyweight ever ?

I'd send in Larry Holmes or Mike Tyson to take Ali's title.

 

Interesting one. There's people who could beat a prime Ali IMO, but no one I'd pick over him. I think styles effect how the fight plays out, but honestly, I think the result has much more to do with just how good they are (and the circumstances of the fight).

I think Tyson has the physical attributes to be the man for the job, but as it went on Ali would impose his will on the fight more and more, and just take over.

Joe Louis and Lennox Lewis are the ones I'd give the best shot, but I wouldn't pick either. I'd just leave them with their trainer. I think there's a lot to be said for the relationship they have, and matching each other well, and I don't see much sense in mucking around with it. I think Ali has the stylistic advantage over Louis, but Louis only needs to land a few big shots to change it, he has a good jab which is alway an asset too. I think Louis would need to try and press Ali, try and tire him, have him keep reacting to jabs and fients, and hammer the body when he can. WIth the speed of Ali, I think early on, Louis might need to rush him a bit

Lennox because he's bigger than Ali, which I don't think is ideal for Ali's tenancies to lean back etc., and I think he's the only one bigger with the ability to give Ali a good fight. But compared to Ali, Lewis could be pretty cumbersome. I think the tactic I'd come up with would be pretty similar, get Ali doing as much as possible, he already will have to move a lot more due to his size disadvantage. Lean on him, try and keep him in jabbing range to stop him getting rests. Ultimately though I think Ali would use his speed, and make the adjustments to win.

 

I actually favor Louis, Frazier, Marciano and Holmes over him, which is why even though I rate him #2 I don’t see an imaginary h2h monster

 

This could be judged in several ways.

1. How you feel the fighter in question would fare against bigger ATGs.
2. How the fighter in question actually did do against bigger top fighters.
3. How the fighter fared above his "natural" weight.

The first one hypothetical and I'm not a big fan of hypotheticals when rating fighters. As for the third one, I do feel natural weight is a bit of a tricky subject, but I wouldn't disregard it completely. Charles for example at his very best around 175-180 lbs, That he was around 190 lbs for his late career losses to Walcott and Marciano was because he was aging at that point. He'd no doubt done better when he was lighter and younger. So, I think it would be fare to say that his natural weight was around 175 lbs. Holy on the other hand was 210 lbs in his physical prime. Does the fact that he bulked up to become that big mean that it wasn't his natural weight? Tricky one.

For that reason, I'd mostly lean on criteria nr 2.

And with that perspective one have to say that Louis easily beat Carnera and Max Baer and beat Buddy Baer with a bit more difficulty. On the other hand all the fighters he lost to were smaller. And he came close to losing to much smaller Cohn. Two of the losses came when he was well past his best, but the Schmeling and Cohn fight happened when he was in his prime or at least close to it.

Holy didn't lose to a smaller fighter until he was 40 (Byrd) and he beat a fair number of bigger top fighters as well. And if you feel that his natural weight really was around 190 lbs, then he have to rate very highly p4p among HWs. I'm not convinced by that line of reasoning, though.

Charles did really, really well against bigger guys in his prime. Both when below and above the HW limit. So he certainly should be in the discussion.

 

Never claimed Ali wasn't unbeatable, but prime vs prime head to head he was the best heavyweight in history in my opinion. Basing that on the competition he faced, and when he faced them, his athletic ability in his prime, his size, and his mental and physical toughness . Of course their have been harder punchers, more technically sound, one or two who may have been faster(But that's very debatable) but no heavyweight yet who's exhibited all the attributes I've listed for Ali on as high a level.

 

P4P best heavyweight ever, Muhammad Ali.

Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Jack Dempsey and Jack Johnson all in with a shout.


H2H I believe Holyfield has the potential to beat any man that ever stepped in the ring.

For sheer size in modern times as well as ability, Lennox Lewis ticks every box.

Overall though, #1 Muhammad Ali.

 

Ali then Louis or maybe even Marciano.

 

P4P*

 

Holyfield is not beating prime Foreman. But there are too many other Toss-ups (Ali, Holmes, Frazier, both the L's) for me to possibly keep him out of the top 10 ATG's at heavy.

 

Was prime Foreman as mentally strong compared to his 2nd career?

On any given day I reckon prime Holyfield has the beating of any heavy. Same can be said of many heavys to be fair.

 

Frankly I don't think he'd need to be. Young George cuts him off, he gets stuck somewhere and wailed on. Holyfield did a lot very well. But that young George Foreman did one thing perfectly. Walk down better boxers. Swarming frankly isn't going to work well on a puncher of that caliber. Holyfield would have to box, and even the best boxers of the time, all time great Ali and arguably the best Heavyweight to never truly win a title in Ken Norton. Both of whom I'd rate as better backfoot fighters than Holyfield, got stuck on the ropes.

Stuck on the ropes is no place to be with George Foreman. Those with that much faith might have merit in believing Foreman would tire himself out wailing on Holy. Holy was a bad, bad, man and I wouldn't doubt it. But Holyfield would get trapped consistently.

 

Yeah I like your theory and that may well possibly be the case. Holyfield does give him a hell of a fight but stylistically young Foreman is probably all wrong for him.

 

Louis was absolutely my #1 ATG heavyweight as far as lb4lb he is certainly in the running along with Marciano, Langford if the criteria is to be under 200lbs. Louis had the best POWER punching artiliary of all which includes Marciano, Lewis, Tyson and Dempsey & Langford

 

Physic

On Tyson Physically I've always said he had the ability to beat Ali, But my problem with him is his mind, what would Tyson do when Ali start the mind games? Would he fall into the trap Foreman fell in and get so angry he punched himself out? Would he try to bite off an ear when he couldn't intimidate Ali as he did with Holyfield? In my opinion he's the typical bully, (Though a very talented one) and like so many when he realizes he's in a real fight he'd find away out in my opinion. Holmes had the jab to trouble Ali, but foot speed , and his susceptibility to right hands would be where he losses, Ali's 2nd biggest weapon was his lead right hand, it was almost as fast as his jab, while I don't believe he had the power to stop Holmes, I see a tough but unanimous decision for Ali prime vs prime.

 

I think Ali would find himself on the canvas early and be forced to dig deep and ofcourse adjust. Tyson was fast. Shockingly fast for a slugger and he could hit from either side of the plate.