Joe Louis challengers who could have won the title in the 70s?

We've seen what a bulked up 217+ pound Toney could absorb, but not necessarily the lighter cruiserweight version. (The blog collecting unofficial weigh ins shows comparatively little dehydration -- Toney was in the mid 190s: http://basementgymboxing.blogspot.com/2014/06/fight-night-boxing-weights-rehydration_22.html?m=1). Young Foreman had 20 to 30 pounds of natural weight on cruiserweight Toney.

Foreman may not have hit harder than Shavers, but 'round these Classic parts, he's regarded as a better and harder puncher than Peter and Rahman. Which may or may not be true, but it is prevailing opinion.

Also not bad at cutting off the ring. Ali rope-a-doped Foreman because Ali couldn't run.

Roided-up, early heavyweight Toney of Holyfield (and perhaps Ruiz) vintage might be interesting. But I don't know that cruiserweight Toney is all that different from guys Foreman would have actually dealt with in his own era.

 

Ha!

I've always been the guy in the uncomfortable liminal area between the warring camps. (Sadly, this will probably be the last post of the night.)

As I often do, I was busily at work editing my post while you were apparently writing yours, so you may have missed the renovations.

Surprisingly, Toney was only cutting a few pounds of water weight. He was genuinely 50s sized as a cruiser. A small 50s heavy at that.

Foreman could force people to fight his kind of fight, though. Oafish he may have looked, but he imposed himself on people.

Fat Toney can, yes.

Cruiser Toney, perhaps not. This is the flipside of the speculative discussions that sometimes occur on this forum about whether an unnaturally-bulked smaller fighter can absorb shots better.

IIRC, Ali said that he couldn't outmaneuver Foreman, which was one motivation behind the rope a dope. Ali wasn't an easy fighter to cut off the ring against.

Young, it depends on whether you think Foreman was still firing on all cylinders. And Foreman still managed to hurt Young, who was more proven as an unkillable cockroach than Toney. (Or even Ruiz, for that matter.)

 

Hm...let me kind of take it from the top.

Peralta may have been end of the line, but the Foreman he faced was beginning-of-the-line. At a later stage of his career than Foreman from Peralta, Wlad was getting TKO'd by a durable journeyman. Mark 1 fighters aren't necessary what you find later on. It's true, however, that Peralta caused Foreman trouble. The first time for sure.

Toney might hit an unfortunate middle ground, though, where Little Toney could lack durability, while Big Toney lacks mobility. As to power....well, Peralta may not have had it, but even heavyweight Toney didn't really crack very hard, either.

I do think that heavyweight Toney has a better chance though, yes.

Toney is much more energy efficient, and a far better boxer. That's true. Foreman, though, may still be able to inflict enough damage to stop him, precisely because Foreman would typically go all-out with his caveman swings. He clubbed down more skilful boxers, and also clubbed down guys (like Chuvalo) who should have been durable enough to absorb what he was throwing. My recollection of the Rahman and Peter fights was a more cautious approach, behind the jab. I don't remember any punchers heavier than Jirov trying to bulldoze Toney with crude aggression. Heck, Peter outboxed Toney in II.

If Ali had been able to outmaneuver Foreman, he would not, I think, have been laying on the ropes waiting for Foreman to exhaust himself from hitting Ali.

Toney also has disadvantages in the out-boxing department that Ali didn't. Toney's 5'9" height doesn't just make him uncomfortably small against Foreman; it also gives him a range disadvantage against a man with long arms who had a very good jab when he chose to use it. (Toney's height was also 3 inches shorter than Peralta, with a comparable disparity in reach of 72" vs 77".) I would expect Foreman's jab to be much more effective against Toney than, say, Samuel Peter's jab was. And Peter's jab won him the second fight. Similarly, Rahman tagged Toney with his jab a lot when he made the effort.