Joe Louis KO 8 Pat Valentino 1950

No shame in being wrong. Does it change your perspective on comeback Joe Louis?

Many people convinced themselves that comeback Louis was some kind of one armed shambling wreck when Marciano beat him just because he was no longer vintage prime Joe Louis. Fact is, comeback Louis was still good enough to knock down Agramante with a right hand, knocked out Nino Valdes, knocked out Savold and knocked out Valentino.

 

I was just setting the record straight.

Louis did not score a ko in an official fight after Savold. His wins prove to me how great he was in his prime,but don't convince me he was still great.

 

ldShame on you !! time to retire

 

I retired 9 years ago, though I concede there are a few that would wish me gone from here.

 

Almost unique in fact.

 

I agree that Louis was no longer great but feel comeback Louis was still an outstanding contender in his own right. I think the once great man had declined only to the level of a Ron Lyle or Trevor Berbick. Old Joe was still a handfull and only champs could have beat him.

There is enough evidence to back this up. I think it is time comeback Louis was seen as a decent contender in his own right... even if Louis was no longer a GOAT champion.

 

Trippy. Those braiaiaians done scrambled up good B.E.!

Yes comeback Louis was still a very good contender at least.
Only evidence against it was Marciano said his right hand was "nothing".
But he was still excellent overall & won rounds there, just not near his best.

 

If marciano said Louis's right hand was "nothing" it could only have been because Rocky smothered away any leverage Joe could get on it. Joe was such a perfectionist that if there was not an opening he would not pull the trigger. Against a lesser fighter than Rocky comeback Louis would have shown he still had a dynamite right hand. It was in evidence against Agramante, Joe's previously filmed fight.

 

Louis himself said "my right hand dont leave me no more."
Talking about the Mauriello fight Louis said.
"The fight was good,the last time I really felt like my old self.I had complete contol,energy,power.I wonder sometimes if that wasn't my last great fight".That was September 1946, over 5 years prior to Marciano.
regarding his fight with Rocky Louis may have been looking back with rose coloured glasses when he assessed his performance but this is what he said in his autobiography.

Rocky had a rough reputation,he was out of Brockton Massachusetts,27 years old,and in 37 fights he had 32 kos.
Tell you the truth I didn't think too well of Marciano and I wasn't anxious to fight him.
I kept looking at the throne: that's what I wanted.But Marciano was getting very popular and Jim Norris smelled money".

I didn't figure on any problems with Marciano.he was strong sure,but he fought like a street brawler.

Figured I could out box him anytime and I needed the money too much to turn it down.
On October 26th 1951 when I climbed intothe ring at MSg,I felt confident.I felt even more confident when I knew I had won 3 rounds out of the first 5.
Yeah! I was right ,he was a street brawler.He couldn't touch me when it came to boxing.

Marciano was strong though.I figured with a little more training he could do it all.But right then in the ring I knew I was busting him up with my jabs.
Everything was fine until the 7th round.My age gave me away;all of a sudden like my legs gave out.
They had to lift me off the stool for the 8th.Marciano knocked me down once with a left hook.I managed to get up, after taking an 8 count.
Then he caught me with another left that put me up against the ropes and followed witha looping right hand.But I just couldn't get out of the way.It hit me on the neck and I fell through the ropes.".

"The better fighter won,but I wasnt really hurt until the knockout.
He was a good puncher and very strong.he hit harder than Schmeling"

 

Thanks for the quote, I have the same book and it reminded me of what a good read it was. I shall sort it out later and find a passage where Joe says he never liked being crowded.

Aside from that though, Louis saying he was not as good as he once was is not anything I have not said about him. Louis not being what he was is still a good fighter. Even an active, in shape,comeback Louis running at 60% of his former self is still a strong contender in any era.

 

But a contender without that dynamite right hand.Agramonte had lost his 2 previous fights when he faced Louis , Joe Walcott had him down 4 times before he was stopped .
Agramonte lost his next 5 fights after the second Louis fight, being stopped by Bob Baker and dropped by Johnny Williams .Louis dropping him does not persuade me he still had the reflexes or power in his best punch.
Agramonte went the distance in both the Louis fights,so did Cesar Brion.imo.They would not have done so if Louis still had his full arsenal.

 

that Joe Louis still better than Chris Areola-Bertine Stiverne and would have beat both of them among others in the heavyweight division today

 

Pat Valentino could beat half the contenders today.

 

Thank you. It takes a big man to admit he is wrong and sometimes an even bigger puppet to fool him.

 

Even at his best Joe Louis was not stopping everyone. Nobody was stopping Cesar Brion at that time either he was one tough hombre. Charles could not knock out Brion, lastarza could not stop Brion. baker could not knock out Brion. Nobody ever did for years. In his very next fight after Joe Louis beat him Cesar was robbed against Rex Layne.

James Dawson, New York Times, scored the bout 7-3 for Brion, giving Layne rounds 1, 2 and 8. Associated Press scored the bout 7-3 Layne.
Dawson wrote:
“Plunging and tossing like a rudderless ship, Rex Layne, Lewiston, Utah, heavyweight, somehow or other managed to gain a decision over Cesar Brion, from the Argentine, in ten dull rounds of fighting at Madison Square Garden last night. And if there is any consolation in a moral victory, Brion has it. A crowd of 5,768 booed the verdict and it was plain that many, if not the majority, thought Brion had won.”

When you look at how Brion and Agramonte were matched these guys were tough enough to test anyone at that time. Omelio might have been knocked down by other contenders but he gave everyone a fight at that time. He was beating Billy Gillium (who beat Valdez) and John Holman as well as giving clarance Henry and Elkin Brothers all they could handle around the time omelio fought comeback Louis


Freddie Beshore gave Charles 14 tough rounds one fight before Louis stopped him, infact nobody had stopped beshore as early as Joe Louis since Freddie had begun to mix in top class. Oma, valentino, Bob dunlap and much much later earl walls could not stop Freddie Beshore. Good fighters had a tougher time trying to stop Beshore than comeback Joe Louis.

Again, comeback Joe Louis was not the phenomena he had been as a young man but as an in shape veteran contender he was recording title challenging form results.