"Joe Louis Not Great"

The posters name was revolver...he was banned back in 07...he hasn’t been seen since.. it’s been 11 years, safe to say he’s gone for good.

 

1/5 Montrose posted a satirical reply to Revolver's 'Joe Louis Not Great', applying Revolver's argumentation to Muhammad Ali's legacy.
________________
Montrose
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:42 pm
Post subject: Muhammad Ali Was Not A Great Fighter

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MUHAMMAD ALI
WHERE DOES HE BELONG IN THE PANTHEON OF GREAT HEAVYWEIGHTS?
NOT AMONG THE BEST IF ONE IS OBJECTIVE ABOUT IT
BY ******O, A CLEAR-EYED AND HONEST BOXING HISTORIAN

“I Do This For a Living”

(I’m sure Herb Goldman and Hank Kaplan never heard of the guy, but I may have seen this guy in a documentary speaking on the evolution of fleas).

“Float Like a butterfly, sting like a flea many bums did whip Muhammad Ali.”

Lets review Ali’s record and briefly the career records of his opponents.

Trevor Berbick (50-11-1). Berbick had a decent record but lost practically
every time he stepped up in competition. He was starched in one round by
Bernardo Mercardo before beating Ali. Berbick was also beaten by less than stellar competition such as S.T. Gordon and Jimmy Thunder, but Ali could not beat him. Berbick made Ali look slow and lethargic. Where some all time greats all had their share of journeyman that they faced, they beat them.
Ali lost to a number of journeyman type fighters. At a similar age as Ali in
this fight, Ray Robinson who was Ali’s hero was still beating fighters of
this caliber. At age 39 Robinson lost a highly disputed draw to Gene Fullmer in a title fight. Ali lacked the greatness to accomplish the same feat. It was a clear victory over the so called “Greatest.” Berbick retired him.

Larry Holmes (69-6) The best fighter Ali ever faced. What happened? At an
age where Lennox Lewis was beating Vitaly Klitschko (32-1), Ali was
completely outclassed and dominated failing to win a single round while
being stopped by a fighter who could do everything he could do better. Did
any heavyweight champion ever look so worthless in a title fight as Ali did
against Holmes? Joe Louis, who had only 4 fights in the previous 8 years, at least won some rounds and landed some punches against Ezzard Charles and was competitive at a similar age against Rocky Marciano swelling his eye with his jab and made a fight of it. But Ali, who weighed only a single pound more for this fight then he did for Foreman a few years earlier, could not win a single round against Holmes. The NY Times reported, “In 10 rounds, he (Ali) landed fewer than 10 solid punches.” Ali simply did not have the ability to deal with a bigger, stronger, superior technical fighter with a better jab.

It should be noted that Holmes also feasted on a lot of inferior competition. Look at some of the careers of his title defense opponents; Ossie Ocasio (23-13), Mike Weaver (41-18), Lorenzo Zanon (27-6-3 ko’d 5 times in 36 fights), Scott LeDoux (33-13-4), Lucien Rodriguez (39-12-1), and Renaldo Snipes (39-8) nearly knocked Holmes out with one punch. Unlike Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano who defended against seasoned experienced veterans
Holmes (and Ali too as well shall see) fought mostly green, inexperienced
amateurs that made them look better than they were and sometimes those kids made them look bad! Holmes defended against such callow opposition as Tim Witherspoon (15 fights), Leon Spinks (14 fights), Ossie Ocasio (13 fights), David Bey (14 fights), Bonecrusher Smith (15 fights), Carl Williams (16 fights), and Marvis Frazier who had only 10 pro fights! How such a fighter could be considered great beating a slew of inexperienced amateurs defies intelligent reasoning. Yet this same fighter beat Ali 10-0 in rounds and made him quit on his stool.

Leon Spinks (26-17). The worse heavyweight champion ever. He only won the title because he beat an over-rated Muhammad Ali. This bum Spinks had only 7 pro fights at the time and DIDN’T WIN all of those. Spinks was such a huge underdog that Las Vegas bookies would not give odds on the fight. Yet he gave Ali an ass whipping. He swarmed over him and gave him no room to breathe and won easily proving Ali was not close to “The Greatest.” Ali couldn’t deal with real pressure from a fighter who was not fit to be on Joe Louis “bum of the month club.” Spinks was knocked out 9 times in his career more than either Charles or Walcott and he had half as many fights. He was even knocked out by some guy named John Carlo in one round who was in his pro debut. Yet Ali could not put this hapless china chinned chump down in 30 rounds of fighting in 2 fights?

There is more to the story. Some will no doubt try to say Ali was old, but
he had just turned 36 the month before. To get more perspective on the age issue, consider that at 36 years of age, Larry Holmes stopped David Bey (6’3”, 233 lbs), and defeated Carl Williams (6’4”, 215 lbs), in back-to-back fights. (Note this is quoting Revolver and he is error Holmes was born in ‘49 both fights were before his birthday in Nov. of ‘85 so he was 35. Math, along with other subjects such as logic, must not one be of Revolver’s strong points) And just shy of his 38th birthday, Lennox Lewis as mentioned previously, beat Vitaly Klitschko (6’7” 248 lbs) who was the number one rated contender. It was Lewis’ third fight since turning 36. His two previous opponents were Hasim Rahman (236 lbs, 35-2) and Mike Tyson (234 lbs, 49-3). He won both of those fights by knockout. But Ali could not defeat an amateur opponent who weighed less than 200 pounds and had only 7 pro fights and not all of those were wins? Losing to a green kid like Spinks proves how truly over-rated and over-hyped Muhammad Ali is to this day.

Spinks who at 6”1 ½” and a 76” reach beat Ali with a simple plan. Spinks
used aggression, jabs and pressure to force Ali to the corners and outwork
him. The NY Times reported, “Ali danced and jabbed, danced and jabbed and
took Spinks shots in an apparent effort to let the St. Louisian, who at 197
½ pounds was outweighed by 17 pounds, expend his energy.” But it was to no
avail against an inferior challenger determined enough to beat him.

Of course people will write the loss off as an old, out-of-shape Ali losing
to a young, hungry although completely inexperienced opponent. But an
examination of Ali’s career reveals few significant wins, a number of
defeats, several close calls where he was almost knocked out, many
controversial wins, and alleged fixed fights, as well as a fight where he
was completely dominated (not winning a single round) and stopped by a
fighter who is considered his inferior to this day by those who are blinded
by their infatuation for this over-rated, over-hyped media phenom. However, a clear-eyed, realistic boxing historian sees Ali for the phony that he was.

Before moving on, I must pause and summarize what we have thus far learned: Ali lost three of the three fights discussed so far! He was clearly beaten by Trevor Berbick (a journeyman), completely dominated by Holmes who proved a better technician could not only defeat him, but utterly dominate him Ali failing to win a single round or even land a significant punch in the entire fight, and he was beaten and battered by an amateur with less than 7 pro fights and not all of those wins!

Earnie Shavers (73-14). Shavers was one of the more experienced opponents that Ali fought, but he was a one-dimensional raw slugger with no chin and few if any real boxing skills. He had a padded record of 54-5-1 at the time.
He was knocked out 7 times in his career and lost 14 times. He made his
reputation by knocking out nothing but tomato cans. He lost to everyone he fought who could box even a little. His losses include such stellar names as Stan Johnson, Ron Stander, Bob Stallings, Walter Santemore, George Chaplin (some relation to Charlie I think), and Brian Yates. He also lost to every good fighter he faced including Jerry Quarry and Ron Lyle. Hell, even the totally skill-less Tex Cobb beat him clearly. Ali proved that he couldn’t
break an egg by failing to knock out this glass-jawed winging Neanderthal.
Ali was hurt several times in this fight, staggered and rubbery legged but
his opponent a one punch at time over-rated shoemaker could not finish the job that a real fighter would.

 

2/5 Montrose, Nov 15, 2005, 'Muhammad Ali Was Not A Great Fighter'

Alfredo Evangelista (62-13), a typical talent-less European fighter with no
skills. This bum twice lost to Lorenzo Zanon (27-9-3 with only 9 ko’s). In
fact his last fight was a loss to Zanon. Evangelista coming in to face Ali
had never before been beyond 8 rounds. The NY Times reported that
Evangelista looked “soft” at the weigh in and didn’t look like a real
fighter. ONCE AGAIN we see that Ali prefers to defend his title against
unproven inexperienced opposition or talentless one-dimensional punchers
rather than boxers of any real skill who always troubled him.


Evangelista lost to every notable heavyweight he fought. He was knocked out
by none other than amateur Leon Spinks in only 5 rounds and was also
starched in 2 by Ali imitator Greg Page. Anders Eklund (19-5) also knocked
him out. This worthless pile of crap made Ali look like a fool. Although Ali
clearly won the Times wrote that Ali “did not look sharp” in this fight.

Why isn’t Ali criticized for making such fights? Why is the large number of
title defenses in the record book not problematized in such a manner as to
raise concerns about Ali’s practice of holding up blatantly unqualified
journeymen as legitimate contenders for the crown? It’s not just about the
numbers. It’s about the quality of opposition. And we will see many more
faces like Evangelista’s.

Ken Norton (42-7). Norton was never as good as his reputation. He was in
fact “chinny” being knocked out by every big puncher he faced including Jose
Luis Garcia, George Foreman, Shavers, and Gerry Cooney. He was even down
twice against Scott LeDoux who was not a big puncher. He should have lost
that fight but was given a gift draw. Norton ducked Frazier and Lyle because
he knew what the result would be. The films prove that Norton won 2 of 3
fights against Ali. Norton broke the big-mouthed Ali’s jaw in the first
fight and embarrassed him. He also won the third fight. Everyone knows
Norton was robbed in this fight except the hardcore Ali worshippers who
think he was a god. Norton was slow-footed, even dragged his rear foot yet
he had no trouble hitting Ali, cutting the ring and driving him to the
ropes. He even out-jabbed Ali most of the time because he knew how to block
a jab and counter-jab while Ali never in his entire career learned to block
a jab. Ali in three fights never understood that it was the jab of Norton
that gave him so much trouble. Norton was a better boxer than Ali and
realistically beat him 2 of 3 times. Norton’s reputation has been enhanced
because he did beat the overrated Ali (and of course, out of the need to
build up the legend of another overrated heavyweight named Larry Holmes).

Richard Dunn (33-12). How did this guy get a title shot? He was knocked out
9 times in his career. His chin was so bad that even a powder puff puncher
like Ali was able to floor him 5 times. Of course Ali had to knock him down
that many times because he didn’t have a real shock punch. Nobodies such as
Danny McAlinden (in his pro debut), George Dulaire (8-18-4), Rocky Campbell
(18-11-1) as well as Joe Bugner all had first round knockouts over Dunn. Ali
definitely was not as good a puncher as those guys. The results speak for
themselves.

Jimmy Young (33-14). His record isn’t much better than Dunn’s looking at the
numbers. At the time Young had only 17 wins as well as 4 defeats and a
couple of draws. Young was such an inexperienced opponent the common
question of the day was “Who is Jimmy Young?” Young was a 15-1 underdog in
this fight.

Young actually beat Muhammad Ali. Everyone knows this. This fight really
exposed Ali. This fight proved that Ali did not know how to fight as an
aggressor. This was the first time in his career Ali actually fought a boxer
with some decent defensive skills and wasn’t just a puncher who came to him.
So what happened? Ali did not know how to cut the ring on an evasive
opponent and was never able to track him down. Ali simply followed him
around the ring and got outworked and out hustled. What Ali really needed in
this fight was body punching. Something he did not know how to do. The
result was embarrassing, humiliating. Ali never looked so clueless on what
to do in any fight. Young won that fight. No one who saw it live or who
watches the film can say any different. It was an out and out robbery and
Young was in utter shock and disbelief at the decision. So was the audience.
The NY Times reported that the decision was “loudly booed by most of the 12,
472 spectators attending the home televised bout at the Capitol Center.” The
NY Times scored the bout for Young. The Young fiasco is another loss by Ali
to an inexperienced boxer who had semblance of boxing skill.

As we will see, Ali’s reputation is indeed mythic, and this construction is
in fact just one of numerous reconstructions, as Ali’s penchant for
disappointing fans and experts – expressed loudly in boos, jeers, and bad
reviews –(as in the Young and Norton fights) had to be continually glossed
over in order to manufacture an enduring myth of greatness. Indeed, Ali only
appears to us in history as a legend because of the manner in which his
legacy has been constructed by certain sportswriters who see their job as
manufacturing fables for whom they must believe are the ignorant masses
rather than accurately reporting history.

Jean Pierre Coopman (36-16). The worst heavyweight title challenger of all
time, a fighter who had all of his pro fights in Belgium when he was granted
a shot at Ali’s title -undeservedly so. He was knocked out by Ireno Werleman
(4-16-1) before facing Ali. He lost to every journeyman he faced. Fighters
such as Coopman made Ali look great. The reality is he only looked great
because Coopman was a fourth-rate boxer of shoddy skills, and no chin, who
beat nobody.

Joe Frazier (32-4). The best all around fighter Ali faced, but the reality
is Ali never convincingly beat him. That’s right. You heard correctly.
Frazier clearly won the first fight and gave Ali the worse thumping of his
career. Frazier had Ali down and almost out in the 11th (the knockdown was
ruled a slip) and down on his back in the 15th. Ali’s trainer Angelo Dundee
even admitted that only the fact that Ali landed on the seat of his pants
woke him up. As decisive a victory as any heavyweight champion has scored
over another. The simple fact is in the biggest political fight of his
career Joe Louis annihilated his opponent. Ali lost the biggest fight of his
career. Frazier also deserved the decision in the second fight. The New York
Times' Red Smith and Dave Anderson both thought Frazier had won. Frazier was
mugged and robbed by Ali in that fight. The judges gave Ali a gift in this
fight because they wanted to match Ali and Foreman for a big money fight for
the title. The third fight was a robbery too. If Eddie Futch would have just
let Frazier stand up between the 14th and 15th rounds Ali would have quit
like he did against Holmes. He collapsed right afterwards. Sports
Illustrated reported that he was actually ready to quit after the 10th round
against Frazier. He took such a terrible beating he said it was “the closest
thing to death” that he ever experienced. Ali’s Parkinson’s was caused by
Frazier’s punches. This is not too difficult to see. Frazier is really 3-0
against Ali and “Smokin” Joe believes that in his heart.

But there is more to the story. Ali’s fight with Frazier also demonstrated
Ali’s vulnerability to left hooks. Throughout his career Ali never learned
to block a left hook. This is particularly evident in his fights with
Frazier. Ali knew that Frazier was going to throw the left hook and he never
did learn to block it! The left hook is the easiest punch to learn to block
in boxing. But Ali did not learn how to do it in three fights with Frazier
despite the fact that he knew it was coming every time. This shows that
Ali’s ability to adapt and learn is vastly overrated. He could not learn the
most basic of boxing skills.

 

3/5 Montrose, Nov 15, 2005, 'Muhammad Ali Was Not A Great Fighter'

Joe Bugner (69-13). Bugner could box a little, punch a little but did
neither particularly well. Bugner’s career record was that of an erratic
journeyman beating third raters such as Manuel Ramos, Chuck Wepner, Henry
Cooper, Brian London and Ali’s sparring partner Jimmy Ellis but losing to
Dick Hall, Jack Bodell, Larry Middleton, Ron Lyle and even amateur Marvis
Frazier. Bugner was not an inexperienced amateur like Spinks and Young who
beat Ali, nor was he a one-dimensional slugger like Lyle and Shavers, he was
simply a journeyman who twice went the distance with Ali.

Ron Lyle (43-7-1). Lyle, perhaps a bit like Max Baer, was a big strong
puncher but a crude boxer. Jimmy Young, a smallish heavyweight who had only
13 wins in their first meeting, twice outboxed him. A loss to Young was
Lyle’s last fight before meeting Ali. One can now see why Ali took the Lyle
fight, once he realized the dangerous hitter lacked boxing skills he figured
he would be no problem for an experienced fighter such as himself and he was
right. Anybody with some skill could beat Lyle. He was outboxed by the
smaller Jerry Quarry and besides losses to Ali and Foreman was knocked out
by Lynn Ball who had only 14 pro fights. Gerry Cooney also dusted him in one
round. Beating a fighter like Lyle was a rather hallow victory because of
his lack of real boxing skills. The fact remains as to why Lyle was granted
a title fight off a loss? Only because he looked so raw and was so easily
outclassed by a journeyman boxer that it was figured to be another easy
opponent for Ali. Why do men of logical reasoning fail to see how carefully
handpicked Ali’s opponents were? Where is the criticism? Worshippers cannot
see through the glitz and the myth. But a wise, clear-eyed historian can.

Chuck Wepner (35-14). Is one beginning to see a pattern here? Most of these
guys Ali beat had a lot of losses. They were stiffs. Wepner had no boxing
skills. He was a bowery bum plain and simple. He was stopped in 6 rounds by
brittle chinned Duane Bobick four fights after going to the 15th round with
Ali. Before fighting Ali he was stopped by Buster Mathis, Jerry “Tomato Can”
Tomesetti, a young wild George Foreman, an old decrepit Sonny Liston, Joe
Bugner, and Jerry Judge. He also had point’s losses to Bob Stallings (6-5),
Jose Roman (20-5-1), and Randy Neumann (career record 31-7). That a
longshoreman like Wepner could knock Ali down and make it to the 15th round
with a quality heavyweight champion defies belief.

George Foreman had a grossly padded career record of 76-5. He was a wild,
swinging amateurish caveman if ever there was one. George, his feet stuck in
the mud, struggled with every clever boxer he faced. He made his career by
beating up on nobodies. George opposition was so bad on the way to the title
he didn’t fight any has-beens, just never was’s. Just look at some of these
opponent’s. Roberto Davila (16-15) barely broke .500. He went the distance
with Foreman. Levi Forte (19-21-2) also went the distance with George.
Gregario Peralta, who weighed less than 200 pounds, gave George fits in two
fights. The only significant fighters he beat were a fat, out of shape Joe
Frazier and a glass jawed Ken Norton, who as previously noted lost to every
puncher he faced. Foreman was also outboxed in his career by journeyman such
as Jimmy Young, Tommy Morrison, Shannon Briggs and Axel Schulz; the latter
was robbed of the decision.

Ali won this fight because he cheated by using loose ropes. Have you ever
watched this fight on film? It’s ridiculous how loose those ropes were. Ali
was able to pull back so far on the ropes it’s laughable. The ropes were
fixed by Ali’s trainer Angelo Dundee and this is well known. Foreman, a slow
handed, one-dimensional puncher with no stamina at all was easily beaten
because Ali was able to survive the early rounds because of those loose
ropes. Foreman, a free-swinging amateur, virtually collapsed from exhaustion
in the 8th round. Ali could have pushed him over and he wouldn’t have got up
he was so tired. Those are the facts. Foreman did not have the energy to
fight past 5 rounds. To think he could last 25 rounds with a real tough
fighter like Jim Jeffries gives me the shivers.

Ruddi Lubbers (29-8) was knocked out in early rounds by such household names
as Domencio Adinolfi, Mike Shutte, Gordon Racette as well as Alfredo
Evangelista. He is one of the worst fighters Ali ever fought and looks
pathetic on film. But somehow he manages to go the distance with Ali over 12
rounds. A fighter like Lubbers would have been lucky to survive 2 minutes
with Joe Louis.

 

Stormfront?

 

4/5 Montrose, Nov 15, 2005, 'Muhammad Ali Was Not A Great Fighter'

Bob Foster (56-8). Not much to say here other than he was a
light-heavyweight who lost to every single heavyweight he faced. Billy Conn
and Archie Moore at least defeated some heavyweights.

Floyd Patterson (55-8). One of the few fighters that Ali faced who actually
had good boxing skills and a good record. But there is more to the story.
For as talented as Patterson was, he had not faced much real heavyweight
competition. Indeed, he had faced only journeymen and light heavyweights in
defense of his heavyweight title. Patterson ducked Sonny Liston and other
top heavyweights for years when he held the title. Patterson spent most of
his career ducking the top fighters off his time never facing Cleveland
Williams, Nino Valdez and Ernie Terrell. He won the vacant title by beating
43-year-old light heavyweight champion Archie Moore. His title defenses were
against guys like Tommy Hurricane Jackson (career mark 34-9-1). Jackson had
been knocked out in two rounds by Valdez, a fighter Patterson avoided. Yet
Patterson struggled against Jackson in their first fight winning a narrow
split decision. He won the second fight by Tko but Jackson was hardly a
worthy title contender as his record demonstrates. Another one of his title
defenses was against Pete Rademacher who was in his pro debut. Roy Harris
was undefeated at the time, but also unproven. He finished with a career
mark of 31-5 and scored only 9 knockouts in his career and was hardly a
worthy title threat. Another title defense was against glass jawed Brian
London (more on him later). Tom McNeeley, the father of Peter McNeeely, was
another inexperienced foe sent to the slaughter. Tom finished with a career
record of 37-14. The first time Patterson met a heavyweight who could punch
he was annihilated by Ingemar Johannson and then again by Liston twice. Joey
Maxim a light-heavyweight managed to outbox him. He was also outboxed by
Ali’s chief sparring partner Jimmy Ellis. It’s not surprising then that Ali
could. However beating the overly protected and fragile Patterson hardly
makes Ali great. Patterson weighed in the 180’s and had a very weak chin.
Despite being so protected he still managed to be dropped 16 times in his
career and was stopped 5 times.

Jerry Quarry (53-9-4). Quarry started bleeding during the national anthem
because he was so prone to cuts. He was doing well with Ali in the first
fight before he received a nasty gash over his eye. Ali had the best fight
of his career in the second Quarry fight. But beating Quarry is not that
significant after all he was stopped in 7 rounds by George Chuvalo who was a
nothing puncher as well as by Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, the latter was not
known as a huge puncher either. Quarry was down twice against Memphis Al
Jones before coming back to win. Yet Ali could not put him down in two
fights. Joe Frazier also beat him more convincingly than did Ali in either
fight.

Quarry lost to Jimmy Ellis, and Eddie Machen both solid if uninspiring
boxers. He had a draw and a narrow win over an over the hill Floyd
Patterson. Quarry had two draws with Tony Alongi who never beat anyone of
significance despite his career mark of (40-2-4). He also drew with Tony
Doyle (40-16). With a spotty record like this it’s easy to see that Quarry
was just another over-rated white hope who lacked both durability and true
boxing skills.

Jurgen Blin (31-11-6) One of Ali’s typical career opponents. Not as good as
journeyman such as Joe Bugner or Jimmy Young as Blin lost or drew almost a
third of his fights. He was knocked out in 2 of his next 5 fights after
going the distance with Muhammad Ali. Ali, as usual, did not have the punch
to knock out ham and eggers that other heavyweights toppled with no problem.

Jimmy Ellis (40-12-1) Another fighter with a shotty record. Ellis weighed
only 189 pounds for his fight with Ali. He was outweighed by over 31 pounds
and it still took Ali until the 12th round to squeak out a last minute
knockout.

Oscar Bonavena (58-9) had a reach of only 73 ½” Bonavena his stubby little
arms was scarcely more than a journeyman who lost every time he stepped up
in competition. He lost twice to Joe Frazier, and lost to Zora Folley, Jimmy
Ellis, Floyd Patterson and Ron Lyle among others. He never won a fight
against a highly rated top contender. Ali struggled and was in poor form
against Bonavena until finally catching him and knocking him out in the 15th
round. But this not before much of the audience decided to head to the exits
early so bored were they with the lack of action in the ring. It is
lackluster victories such as these over journeyman and stumblebums, where
Ali struggled that prove Ali’s record is a manufactured media myth.

Zora Folley (79-11-6) Folley was a former light-heavyweight once weighing as
low as 178 pounds for a professional fight. He had lost 7 times before
coming into this fight with Ali, 6 times by knockout. One of those losses
was to Alejandro Lavorante (career record 19-5), who only had 13 pro fights
at that time. Folley would only win half of his next 10 fights after losing
to Ali before retiring. Why are the great majority of Ali’s opponents of
this inferior quality? Why is this not talked about more? This was a title
defense for the heavyweight championship of the world. Folley was not a fit
title challenger. Ali feasted on journeyman such as this for most of his
career.

Ernie Terrell (45-9). Another highly over-rated opponent of Ali. Who did he
beat that was any good? Look at the career records of some of his opponents;
Tunney Hunsaker (15-15) failed to break the .500 mark, Amos Lincoln
(39-13-3) was hardly inspiring. Herb Siler was 15-12 this was Terrell’s 26th
pro fight and he was still fighting bums. He won a split decision over
Cleveland Williams but was also knocked out by Williams. His only
significant victories were decisions over Eddie Machen (50-11-3), George
Chuvalo (73-18-2), and Doug Jones (30-10-1) none who were much better than
journeymen themselves, except for Machen who was marginally better. But the
Machen that lost to Terrell was on his downswing in his last 2 years of
fighting. So we can see that Terrell really beat no one special in his
career.

But there is more to the story. Terrell managed to lose to a number of
journeymen and even fourth rate shoemakers in his career. He lost not once
but twice to Johnny Gray a 190 pounder with a career mark of 16-10-1. He was
beaten by Wayne Bethea (28-18-4). He also lost to Thad Spencer (32-13-1) and
Manuel Ramos (25-29-3) had a losing mark for his career. These fourth-raters
beat Terrell as easily as had Muhammad Ali who failed to score a knockdown
or stop this big bum. Terrell was also beaten by none other than the hapless
Chuck Wepner and stopped in the first round by Jeff Merritt. Ali’s win over
Terrell hardly makes him great. Once again we see that beating so called
contenders whose ability is far below that of their reputations is what
forges the Ali legend.

Cleveland Williams (78-13-1). Williams was a big, strong, powerful puncher
at one time, but alas not when Ali fought him as he had a bullet inside of
him as a victim in a shooting incident. Williams was physically not the
fighter he had been a few years previous and was given a title opportunity
as retirement pay. The win over Williams was simply not the real Cleve and
is therefore insignificant in making a case for Ali as being a great fighter
off this win.

 

5/5 Montrose, Nov 15, 2005, 'Muhammad Ali Was Not A Great Fighter'

Karl Mildenberger (56-6-3). Before facing Ali the German had previously been
knocked out in seven rounds by Helmut Ball for the German light-heavyweight
title, and in one round by Dick Richardson for the European heavyweight
title. Despite his lack of boxing ability and his rather fragile china chin
he went into the 12th round against the light-hitting Ali. This is so
typical; a fighter who would not last 3 rounds with Joe Louis extends Ali
and makes him look bad. Ali struggled to finish his opponent in this fight.
Mildenberger had his moments as in the 4th round when he landed two jolting
lefts to the liver and launched a two fisted attack that drove Ali to the
ropes. Ali won clearly but it took him far too long to accomplish the task
against a raw fighter of this low quality. Ali could not knock him out
quicker than a light-heavyweight could! This fight demonstrates clearly what
an abysmal puncher and finisher that Ali really was.

At 6’0” and 201 lbs, Brian London was barely a full sized heavyweight. He
was, however, not a legitimate contender. His record was 35-13 at the time
he faced Ali. He finished with a journeyman’s record of 37-20-1. London was
knocked out 11 times in his career. Every decent fighter he met in the ring
stopped him. He was even decisioned by light-heavyweight Willie Pastrano.
There’s not much more one can say about London. He was the typical Ali
opponent. Another bum, ho hum.

How good was Henry Cooper ? He has been elevated because of his performance
against Ali in their first fight. In truth, he was never a good fighter. He
was 27-8-1 when Ali first faced him, and he had been knocked out or stopped
five times. One of those knockout losses was to Peter Bates whose career
mark was 31-15-4; another was to Uber Bacilieri who achieved an abysmal
23-20-3 record. Clearly a fighter who lost to bums such as these can hardly
be classified as even a second rate fighter.

Henry Cooper is remember for one reason he nearly knocked out Muhammad Ali
in their first fight with a single left hook to the jaw. The NY Times
reported that the punch, “caught Clay on the side of the jaw and Cassius
went over backwards through the ropes. He rolled back into the ring, then
got dazedly to his feet. He was gazing off in the distance…starry-eyed. He
wobbled forward gloves low. He started to fall but his handlers caught him.”

But there is more to the story. Seeing that Clay/Ali was out in the corner
they used smelling salts to revive him. Then they cheated in order to
illegally give their fighter more than the legal one minute rest. The rules
state that if a fighter cannot answer the bell in the allotted one minute
rest period he is deemed the loser by technical knockout. Dundee took his
finger and ripped a tear into Ali’s glove. Angelo Dundee has told this story
many times. Since there were no extra gloves in the corner Ali was given up
to five minutes of rest time to recover from the knockout that he actually
suffered against a third tier heavyweight. Given enough time he was able to
recover and came back to win not by kayo but by a nasty cut.

But that is not all that can be said about Ali’s fights with Cooper. Even in
the second fight Cooper showed that a third tier heavyweight who was slow of
hand and foot could hit Ali with jabs without trouble. Because he never
learned how to block a jab he was always vulnerable against any fighter with
any semblance of boxing skill and not the bums, third tier heavyweights and
raw, wild amateur sluggers that he preferred to fight.

CONCLUSIONS

Consider the fights in which Ali was badly beaten or nearly beaten. Truth be
told he lost 2 out of 3 to Ken Norton, and his only real win was razor thin.
He was beaten soundly and made to look foolish by Jimmy Young who exposed
his lack of real boxing skills. He had the **** beat out of him (literally)
3 times by Joe Frazier (a boxer who knew how to slip Ali’s jab and get
inside). He was dominated by Larry Holmes, Ali not winning a single round or
landing one significant punch in the entire fight. He was even bested by one
of the rawest amateurs he faced in Leon Spinks, a fighter who had only 7 pro
fights and not all of those victories. And truthfully he knocked out by
Henry Cooper, a third tier bum who never beat a significant heavyweight in
his career. He was knocked down by Chuck Wepner, who was not much more than
a bar room brawler.

An objective clear eyed look at Ali’s record and that of his opponents
proves beyond a doubt that Ali was not a great fighter and has been vastly
overrated by the media hyping machine who needed to build Ali into something
he wasn’t at a time when the sport lacked a visible star. That is the truth.

There is only one more fighter on Ali’s record worth mentioning and that is
the one that made his reputation, Sonny Liston (50-4). Liston was a great
fighter who could box and punch. The problem with basing Ali’s asserted
greatness on his fights with Liston is that they were both fixed.

Liston was owned by the mob this is a well known and established fact.
Charles Farrell, wrote,

http://www.boxingranks.com/Articles/Article646.htm

“After the second Patterson fight, there were no viable opponents for
Liston. Aside from Ali, he had thoroughly destroyed every possible title
aspirant. No one thought he could be beaten and, more importantly, no one
was willing to pay to see him beat up anyone else.

Sonny was getting old…and he had no great love for fighting. It didn’t make
economic sense to have him fight an endless series of low paying title
defenses for another ten years. The guys who controlled his career decided
that it was better to make two huge, quick scores.

They fixed the fight in Miami. Ali never knew about it. Liston’s people bet
huge amounts, getting almost eight to one odds, on Ali. Because the
conclusion of the first fight was so ambiguous, Liston remained a betting
favorite—at about seven to five—in the rematch. The wiseguys got to clean up
twice with the same play. It’s clear that, in the second fight, Ali spotted
what was going on the moment Liston went down from a non-punch. But Ali was
a very quick study, and made his press release adjustments by the time he
was out of the ring.”

This historical journey has erased whatever remaining myths I still harbored
about Muhammad Ali. I recognize that he is historically important that he
revitalized boxing at a time when it was in the depths of despair. He
brought in the big money purses that fighters have today and we should thank
him for it. But he was jeered and criticized at the time for all his
terrible performances such as those against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Karl
Mildenberger, Ruddi Lubbers, Chuck Wepner, Jimmy Young and Leon Spinks among
others. Reading through the articles you see repeated how the myth is being
shattered, how the idol is being toppled from his pedestal. Nat Fleischer,
founder of Ring Magazine, who saw every heavyweight champion ringside from
Jeffries to Ali, refused to rate him in his top 10 all time heavyweights. It
should now be clear even to the most ardent Ali worshipper as to the reasons
why.

Muhammad Ali was not a great fighter. He was fundamentally unsound and a
flawed fighter. He won the title on a fixed fight, he was rescued from a
knockout through cheating against Cooper, he fought nothing but bums and
third stringers and some of those actually beat him in the ring. The only
decent fighters he fought Joe Frazier and Ken Norton both beat him 2 of 3
times in the ring, while Larry Holmes thoroughly dominated him. He went 1-1
with amateur Leon Spinks who had fewer than 8 pro fights. No other fighter
who was called great had such a dismal record.

And this truth needs to be repeated until people clear their heads of the
Ali fable. The very idea that he could beat a fighter like Joe Louis is
ludicrous. One can only make such a ridiculous claim because they are
ignorant of the facts. If Henry Cooper could knock out Ali in four rounds
Joe Louis would do it in one. If Leon Spinks could beat Ali imagine what
Rocky Marciano would do. Muhammad Ali lost in the ring to Jimmy Young
because he had only a semblance of defensive skill. Imagine what Jersey Joe
Walcott and Jack Johnson would do to him. They would embarrass him.

 

A few errors, Fitz was 36, not 37. If Conn could hit like Fitz, Louis looses.

Holmes never had any problem with sub 200 pound men in his prime.

Conn and Walcott were good boxers who fought stupidly. Walcott won the first fight, and got KO'd in the second by showboating. Conn has the first fight won, he opted to slug in round 13, which was foolish.

Norton or Witherpsoon could have beaten Joe Louis. Good boxers with better range over any skilled boxer Louis fight. I pretty much view Norton and Witherpsoon about even with Schmeling.

If you define a top boxer by rounds won to rounds lost ratio, Louis isn't the best. Not even close. Main reasons defense, footwork, trouble with movement etc..

Those who think Louis was the perfect boxer, should be talking about punching technique, and stay within those parameters.

 

Awful to read, but true. If Conn, Schemling, Walcott, and Charles could out box Joe Louis, what in the world do you think Larry Holmes, M. Ali, and Lewis would do McGrain? Men with longer reach, & more power. Do tell.

Oh, power or durable fighters are not persecuted. See Vitali Klitschko who probably has the best rounds won to rounds lost ratio in the history of modern boxing. It is the poor defensive / slower footed fighters that suffer.

IMO, great boxers like Wlad, Lewis, Vitaly, Holmes, ad Ali are seldom losing a decision in their prime, and if they do, its because of a style thing.

Rounds won to rounds lost is a good way to see how good of a boxer someone is, taking out power, and tale of the tape advantages, which Louis had in these cases.

 

I just explained in a video of Louis in 1935 he had good fast feet...which you ignored.

Trouble with movement? He went 6-0 against the best movers of the era...pastor walcott and conn. Kind of hard to say he was exposed when he didn’t lose a fight to any of those men.

Norton could not have beaten Louis. He had a weak chin, and mentally he froze when he faced big punchers...foreman, shavers, cooney, Garcia all knocked him out. Louis would be no different. Norton always struggled against big punchers he didn’t like the fight to come to him. I can’t think of a worst match stylistically for Norton than Louis


Witherspoon was a lazy unmotivated drug user who often showed up to fights out of shape or high on drugs. Louis was a disciplined, self motivating fighter who always brought his best. He would break right through Timmy’s turtle shell defense with crisp combinations and get him out of there early. Witherspoon got hit a lot and he wouldn’t be able to take it from Louis

Holmes had a lot of problems with 202lb mike weaver. In fact, weaver couldn’t miss Holmes with a right hand. Are you going to make a big deal about those 2lb? Louis weighed in heavier than weaver at 207-208lb in his prime for some fights in 1941

If Fitz could box like conn, he would have never lost to Jeffries

 

You should know by now Mendoza that you're not allowed to cite that "stat" without including the caveat that he also has among the worst opposition ever faced by a heavyweight champion. Including the old-timers/pioneers.

 

You continue to bring up the Charles and Walcott fights which happened way past louis’ prime. Yet I never hear you mention Larry Holmes two losses to light heavyweight spinks, or his knockout loss to Tyson?

Holmes lost a ton of rounds in his prime. Norton won at least 7-8; weaver won at least 4, Witherspoon won at least 5-6...once Larry began ducking tough completion, Williams took 6 rounds off him, spinks took at least 16-17 in both fights combined...

Louis never lost a decision in his prime.

Vitali Klitschko faced a schedule of cream puffs his entire career and when he stepped up to fight two good fighters, he lost both times. His comeback reign was impressive because of his age only, but the competition he feasted on garbage. Let’s see how vital is won to rounds lost ratio would look like if he had Louis schedule

 

The best response I can make to this are these words from a song.

And if you're right
It doesn't rain in England
If you're right
They don't drink wine in France
If you're right
Picasso played piano and Fred Astaire
Could never really dance