"Joe Louis of '40 vs. Muhammad Ali of '67" in a time machine/fantasy bout. Who wins?

hh,There is no one on ESB that I respect more. NONE. Nevertheless, I still stick to my opinion that at their repective bests, Joe Louis beats Clay/Ali...
I agree with you that Ali over all beat with a few exceptions, a much better crop o f contenders in his career. of this, I have no doubt.
But as I have contended before a fighter [Joe louis in this case],cannot pick the year of their birth,or the era they fought in. Joe Louis,aside from the first Max Schmeling #1, utterly dominated ,and obliterated all his opponents in a
manner that Ali did not. For THIRTEEN long years Joe Louis held the title,against everyone thrown against him. To say that Ali,because his era boasted a better crop of fighters[not all], implies therefore, Ali must have been a better heavyweight than Joe Louis in a man to man contest, is not
accurate in my eyes...H,what would any heavyweight who was born prior to Ali, [in this case Joe Louis], have had to accomplish with their opponents to beat Ali.? The question on this thread was who would win between the prime Joe Louis against the prime Clay/Ali, and not which fighter fought a better crop of contenders... It is most likely that Ali whips anyone of Joe Louis's
contenders, and I agree on that, but I am convinced that the murderous
hitting prime Joe Louis would have beaten anyone of Ali's opponents,and
most more convincingly. So for example a Freddie Steele licked a much tougher crop of middleweights than a Ray Robinson, doesn't necessarily translate to mean that Freddie Steele would have beaten Ray Robinson, were they to have met head on. Yes Ali had tougher competition,and did struggle against Ken Norton in three fights, was decked by Henry Cooper ,whom a Schmeling ,a Baer would have easily licked, was almost kod by Joe Frazier,
so Ali was not invincible I believe. On the other hand the Brown Bomber, with the exception of the Schmeling fight kod most everyone of his opponents.
So henry, I base my opinion that Joe Louis regardless of the era he fought in
had the tremendous hand speed,and trip-hammer punching power to eventually catch-up to Ali,and stop him.It is based on their respective abilities
and not the happenstance of their births. Enjoy your holiday h.:good

 

Burt, I respectfully disagree, and that is very hard for me to say, as I have a lot of respect for you as well!

I rate fighters not only by there records, who they beat, but also by looking at films and listening to others.

I know most of the top boxing historians and most, not all, pick Ali, with Louis 2nd.

When I was a kid and up to the 60's, the top historians use to say that Dempsey was not only the best heavyweight, but in 1950, the sports writers voted him the best fighter, pound for pound, in the 1st half century. Today, the young people don't rate Dempsey in their top 10 as a heavyweight. As the years went by, Louis became the top vote heavyweight getter, now it's Ali.

Billy Conn actually hurt Louis when Louis was at his best, and Conn was no big puncher.

No one knows for sure, but I would still have to go with Ali.

 

H, yes Billy Conn did hurt Louis, but I firmly believe that the prime Louis
[and we are comparing primes], of the Baer fight, kos Billy Conn, much earlier than the 13th round. Yes, Louis had trouble with boxers as Bob Pastor, and Billy Conn, but it is what happens at the end of the race that counts, and Louis flattened both of these boxers after all. Conversely ,Ali had troubles with men smaller than him,who were agile , such as Doug Jones [disputed decision], Henry Cooper,who dropped Ali on his back,but was a notorious bleeder,Ken Norton,good jabber,who gave Ali hell in three fights, and Joe Frazier,also of course gave Ali problems with his left-hook, so Clay/Ali, also
had his achilles heel with certain opponents...So both men were great fighters who had problems with certain styles,as no one is perfect, but i believe that
irregardless what today's generation of fans choose Ali over Joe Louis, I'll go along with Ray Arcel, and Eddie Futch,and other boxing oldtimers who saw
Joe Louis utterly dominate the heavyweight division for thirteen years,and chose the prime Brown Bomber,as the greatest heavyweight they had ever seen in modern times...And I am in good company....As Louis so plainly put it
"he can run, but he can't hide". ..Take care h...:good

 

Makes no difference as Ali isnt taking his opponents in the Ring with him. The idea that Ali fought better Men is a cop out. As that argument is most of the time. Its only half of the tale. The other half is the Man in the Ring at the time. When that Bell rings your on your own as Boxing is the sport of individual achievement and effort. EDIT. Leon Spinks didnt belong in the same Ring as Ali. Guess what. Jimmy Young was Cannon fodder for Foreman, and...

 

Yeah, your Ass, Bill. Resume is an imperfect yardstick thats been proven wrong on any number of occasions. A gauge, yes. One that allows a feel for an individual. But an imperfect one. You wanna judge a fighter and the probability of his winning or losing? Name me an Ali type fighter Louis ever lost to. Not the ones that gave him problems, but who beat him. The answer, none. The people that beat Louis were stand up boxer punchers and swarmers. Ali was neither.

 

Burt, so your saying that Louis was prime when he fought Max Baer but just several months when he fought the other Max and he wasn't. It just doesn't add up. Max Baer wasn't Ali either.

I rate Ali #1 and Louis #2. Most boxing historians agree that they are 1 and 2, but they differ in which order, You have Louis and I have Ali. Some agree with you and other would agree with me.

Lets just agree that they were the 2 best heavyweights ever.

I know you might think Dempsey might be one of the best too!

 

I agree that who you fight isn't the only thing to go by. I go by a lot of things and that is just one of them.

I gave the tape of the Ali/Jones bout to several well known boxing judges and asked them to judge it. Most scored it 7-3 Ali. Cooper did catch Ali with a Great left hook, but the next round Ali stopped him. Ali wasn't even near his prime at that time, as he improved a lot after he became Champion.

The Ali that fought Williams and Terrell, was the best Heavyweight I ever saw.

 

Fair enough, Bill. Meant nuthin by it.

 

Time for bed double H. We'll take this up tommorow. :happy

 

Yes, I had a bad day today as a couple of my good friends and former boxers died. I will be given the Eulogy's and ring the bell "9" times at their wakes and funerals.

Good Night!

 

Sorry Bill, I was, and am in the same boat as you are . Sooner or later we all taste this bitter fruit, but life must go on as we all know the consequence...:good

 

hh, I feel that I am debating with myself,jousting with U.
Yep, Louis was I believe at his quickest and most destructive when he kod Max baer. And yes, he soon after was kod by the 31 year old Max Schmeling who fought the BEST fight of his life,that night in 1936. Schmeling was always a hot and cold fighter [witness how bad he looked in the ko by Max Baer in 1933]. Louus at the first Schmeling fight was about the same age as Clay was in the Doug Jones bout. And this Schmeling at the 1st Louis fight
would have flattened any version of Doug Jones. So yes Louis was kod by Schmeling in the 12th round after ABSORBING dozens of Max Schmeling's laser right hands. No disgrace for the 22 year old Louis, I believe.
I firmly believe that THIS Max Scmeling would have beaten MOST anyone of
Ali's opponents.He could box, was rugged,wily with a great fast and accurate right hand. Of course in their second fight ,a determined Louis in a Dempsey
like attack kod the 33 year old Schmeling in the 1st round.
H, in my mind's eye,and my intuition ,I cannot see Clay/Ali beating this version of a LITHE young trip-hammer puncher like Joe Louis, irregardless of
their resume. Ali, was better against bigger slower punchers where his handspeed nullified their superior one punch power , but in the young prime Louis,who punched with great speed and accuracy, Ali would be severely hurt
by Louis's combination punching, that Ali never experienced before...
So i go along with Ray Arcel ,Eddie Futch,Bill Gallo, Jimmy Cannon,and a host of other writers who picked Joe Louis over Ali. It is substance over glitz...
Substance wins...Take care h...:hi: