"Joe Louis of '40 vs. Muhammad Ali of '67" in a time machine/fantasy bout. Who wins?

Remind me again of how many super middleweights Ali struggled with in his prime

 

No matter who wins, this would be a chess match in my opinion, and a very tough one for both fighters.. Although Muhammad Ali was hardly unbeatable, I would always favor him to be the victor. Of All Louis's opponents, Ali would be by far the most versatile. He was bigger than Lou Nova, faster and more skilled than Billy Conn, more durable than Arturo Godoy, and craftier than Joe Walcott.. He could take a punch from the hardest hitting men of all time, and in his prime, could avoid most men's best punches, or at least make them lose some of their power through distance, or smothering them in the clinches.. I don't buy the myth that Ali would just casually circle around Louis and not get tagged at all. Joe had very fast hands, knew how to cut off the ring, and by the time he was within landing distance, you weren't just getting hit with one shot, but probably a whole barage of combinations.. Ali would probably get decked at some point, and even find himself in situations where he'd be against the ropes taking blows to the head and body.. But, at the end of the day, he would outland Louis, ware him down, and either force a late stoppage or take a convincing decision.. Joe Frazier, for all his handspeed, power, workrate and upperbody movement, still lost 2 out of 3 times to Ali and had to battle life and death to even get one win out of the trilogy. Muhammad was animal of the likes that Louis had never seen in his long tenure as a pro.. The proven ability against greater opposition is what sets these two apart for me...

 

For the record, I do think Louis could win, but I just favor Ali.

 

Oh,,,,,you must referring to Billy Conn.

Billy Conn, Draws with Cassius Clay.
Tunney Hunsaker I'm not.

 

Ali by UD or late KO/TKO.

Jab jab jab jab jab ya face off Joe.

 

Ali would spank Joe Louis! Come on! Joe Louis was a great heavyweight, a real powerhouse, but Ali's talent was head and shoulders above Louis. I know, a lot of you Louis fanatics don't want to hear that, but Joe's no head movement style and slow footwork would spell a bad night for Joe. Oh yeah, Joe could punch, well so could Liston, Frazier and Foreman. A 1967 Ali would have NO REAL TROUBLE with ANY Joe Louis. Deal with it!

 

Prior to the first Chuvalo fight, there was speculation that Ali was just a pretty fighter and couldn't take punishment, due to the Cooper and Jones KD's. You can clearly see how Ali offers his midsection to Chuvalo's hooks, not even attempting to defend himself with the elbow blocks and parries that he shows against Liston. In my mind, he intentionally allowed Chuvalo to land to make a statement. What I took from the fight was not how easy it was for Chuvalo to hit Ali to the body, but that Ali took the punches from a strong, strong fighter with seemingly little to no ill effect.

Ali wouldn't fight a fighter as worthy as Joe Louis like he did Chuvalo. The only reason why people say that Ali was stronger and sturdier in the 70's was because he could no longer dance and outbox as he used to, so we saw him having to wrestle much more than we were used to. The strength was always there, especially moreso with stronger legs, which if anyone has wrestled knows, form the basis of your centre of gravity and thus your resistance to opposing forces of momentum. Secondly, because his legs were gone (amongst numerous other things), we saw a 70's Ali get tagged a lot more cleanly than we remember of his prime, which would make it appear as if his chin got better ... nah, I'd argue that his willpower was stronger due to what he'd gone through, but his training consistency, his overall strength and his chin, I'd argue to be as good, if not better, during his prime. Of course, I'd qualify his getting caught more due to the fact that he was facing better fighters.

Ali's not fighting Louis like he did Folley where he shipped punches to land his own, much like he did against Foster. I cannot see a prime Ali abandoning defence as he sometimes did against fighters who quite clearly weren't in his league.

For me, Ali has enough stamina, enough reach, enough footspeed, enough timing, range negotiation and more importantly survival skills and durability to survive the monumentous task that is facing a primed Louis. Undoubtedly the two best HWs of all time for my money, but it is Ali's proven calibre against a higher level of fighter that make me more comfortable with going for Ali in a series ... I do think Louis will score a KD though, I just think Ali was savvy enough to see out the round and ultimately, the fight.

 

I would imagine, that this fight would be so easy, that Muhammad Ali would hardly train.
Just a 'walk in the park'.

I guess you could call this fight 'Zora Folley II'

 

Joe's off centre head placement, chin tucked behind a shoulder roll defence, picking off, parrying and countering of the jab would argue with you. Joe's footwork was the perfect footwork for his style ... shuffle backwards, walk an opponent onto your power with effective distance negotiation. Indeed, Ali imitated it during the first round of the fight with Foreman. If you want to see a good example of Louis' footwork, look at his fight with Max Baer ... very effective!

Louis' orthodox boxing talent are head and shoulders above Ali's ... Ali's athletic talents of speed and reflexes are above Joe's, but not head and shoulders. We're talking about the two greatest HWs here ... the difference between the two in many areas are incremental ... "head and shoulders" is pure hyperbole other than talking about the level of top tier opponents.

 

I honestly can't make up my mind. One day Ali...The next Louis...Put a gun to my head and I'll pick Ali by decision. After tasting Joe's power early perhaps even hitting the canvas Ali puts it into overdrive and uses his legs to stay away while peppering Joe from the outside. Joe makes it scary late in the fight when Ali slows down a little but Ali has enough to avoid real danger and both are there for the final bell. Ali by decision. I'll add this though..If Louis does a Henry Cooper on him early and the bell doesn't save Ali, then Joe finishes him...Plain and simple.

 

It's kind of strange, no one here suggests that Dempsey benefitted from his period of inactivity, but Ali and SRL obviously did to some. It just goes to show how big a part bias towards a fighter plays here.

It's ludicrous to say that 214lbs, almost 33-year old Ali - with several wars under his belt - had any physical advantages whatsoever against the 212 lbs 25-year old version.

 

An older Joe Louis would stand no chance.
Once his speed deserted him, his power (whatever he had left) was nullified by the
slightest movement.

Though a Prime Joe was bothered by boxers with movement, he did not waste
energy in the ring chasing them.

You Gotta Go With Joe, by close decision.

 

Most of the things you wrote about here were never adressed by me. Tell me, where I wrote Ali was stronger? I said he was tougher and mentally stronger. Or at least more proven to be. So, instead of telling me to get my facts straight, read a bit more thoroughly.

Yeah, Ali was faster before his layoff. And that made it easier for him to beat and dominate his opponents. Saying that he was better wasn´t quite right. It would be more correct to say he was more likely to dominate an opponent pre-layoff but was harder to beat post-layoff - at least when he still had it, from 1971 to 1975/6.

 

Agreed,

I have never bought into the notion that Ali was physically and mentally tougher in the 1970's than he was in the 1960's. Its true that he took more puncher from more devastating hitters in the later period, but that had more to do with an adjustment in fighting style to compensate for lost ability rather than acquired toughness.. After the age of about 28 or 29, Muhammad could no longer maintain that high paced tempo for 12-15 rounds the way that he did prior to exhile, so he spent more time inside the pocket, taking shots, using the ropes, and fighting in the clinches. There is no way that Angelo Dundee would have had him taking that devastating punishment from men like Foreman, Frazier or Shavers if he knew that he didn't have to.