"Joe Louis of '40 vs. Muhammad Ali of '67" in a time machine/fantasy bout. Who wins?

Sigh. You're talking about the fight itself. I am talking about technique.

That is all I am talking about. It's no coincidence that Futch managed to teach two boxers how to beat Ali... What do you think of Futch's assessment that Louis would beat Ali prime for prime?

You are referring to two fights in which Louis was in his worst condition- against a former world champion in which he trained poorly and another in which he dehydrated himself to below 200 pounds for the weigh in to stop talk of being much heavier than Conn...Conn changing his fight plan is a myth. If you watch the fight he's clearly still boxing as he normally is. He doesn't become more aggressive, he's still backing and circling away. I always wonder what the hell people are talking about when referring to this "going for the knockout" business- Conn was not a KO artist and he'd never win that way. And watching the fight it's clear IMO he didn't try to. It was LOUIS who was more aggressive, jabbing more and looking for openings on the inside.

 

You can't be serious.

It was Ali surviving that round blind, not Dundee. If Ali really had wanted to quit he would have. That he told Dundee to "cut them off" when suddenly finding himself blind with stinging pain in his eyes doesn't mean he really meant it. It was more likely just sudded panic spekaing. The bottom line is that he finished the round and came back to win.

There is just nothing to suggest that Louis was stronger mentally than Ali.

That a relatively green and untested Clay came through the formidable test that was Liston is enough proof to me that a more mature and confident Ali would hack it mentally against Louis. Louis on the other hand never met anyone close to Ali when it came both to what he brought during the fight as well as before it. As I said, the question mark here is on Louis, not Ali.

 

You know, we are still talking about mental strength here. My post was about nothing else. His mindset.

Yeah, he was more inconsistent after the lay-off.

 

Nicely summed up,Bokaj. It never ceases to amaze me how Ali telling Dundee to cut his gloves off gets taken literally.

 

I'll try it again: And how many times were Ali troubled like this when he still had his legs? Even in the rematch it's clear that Norton didn't have much success with his jab while Ali was moving. I don't think Norton's jab was that a big factor in the rubber match either.

And I think this all is a bit overstated to begin with. You can see Liston trying to parry and counter Ali's jab with his own, but without much success.

 

So you think he was more "determined" and mentally tougher than the man who confidentely stepped in the ring and high jacked the title from a seemingly invincible sonny Liston, or the one who purposely kept Ernie Terrell standing for 15 rounds, for the sole purpose of punishing and humiliating him?

How do you know this asside from the fact that he just subjected himself to further punishment - something that he didn't have to do years earlier?

This is shear speculation on what you think the man felt.. It does not confirm that he was any tougher, and frankly there has never been any evidence that a professional athlete has benefitted from long periods of inactivity, or age, but there have been numerous examples where they have diminished from it..

How do you know this? What fights and performances lead you to believe that his mental toughness would fail him? If you're going to use the cooper and jones bouts of 1963, keep in mind that Ali was 22 years old and had 19 fights.. This was not the fully matured champion who we saw in 1967.

he wouldn't have to stay away from him for ever.. he could outbox Joe for most of the evening and periodically battle his way out of trouble in the event that he gets tagged or pinned against the ropes.. You make it sound like the minute he gets slapped, its game over..

Okay, it really sounds like you're piece mealing this analysis.. "The young ali doesnt' win because he's not mentally tough enough, but the old Ali still loses, because he's too tough for his own good and has no mobility"... None of these claims are particularly accurate.. Ali in the 60's was just as capable of weathering a storm as the one in the 70's, we just never saw it because he didn't have to.. He wasn't fighting men with the handspeed of Joe Frazier, or the power of George Foreman, or the style of Ken Norton, and furthermore, he had additional speed and stamina to maintain a longterm workrate to keep him away from the fighters he DID FACE... That's the answer to your riddle.

As a matter of fact yes... Ali had been gone from the sport for nearly 4 years with only two bouts as tuneups, and facing a man with greater handspeed, upperbody movement, a dangerous left hook and a style unlike Louis's that troubled Ali... I don't think that Joe Louis could create the kind of problems for Muhammad that Frazier did.. And incidentally if you're going to take this route of " well look at what that guy did to him", then how about Conn outboxing him for many rounds, or Schmeling utterly kicking the crap out of him? Frankly, I'd place Joe Frazier in Joe Louis's league a lot more comfortably, than saying the names Schmeling, Conn and Ali in the same breath...

 

Yeah, you said he seemed more determined and like he wanted it more. But how much more determined can you be than Ali was in the last round against Jones, after the KD against Cooper and in the fifth against Liston?

I just don't see the question mark on Ali's determination even pre-exile. When he needed to show determination he did. And it got him through some very tricky patches. What more can one ask for?

 

I´m dead serious. Yes, it was ali surviving but without Dundee he wouldn´t have been in that round. And yes, I think he really meant it.

I never said Louis was stronger than Ali. I said pre-layoff Ali is too fragile mentally to hang in with Joe Louis. If he wanted to quit against an out of shpe, old Sonny Liston, I think he won´t be able to hang in with a prime Joe Louis. (I´m exagerating here) Louis doesn´t need the same mental strength here as Ali does. Ali is the one under pressure, not Louis. I think that´s a very underrated aspect of the game. This pressure is tiring, makes you tense, and too much of it leads to mistakes and Louis´ was terriffic at taking advantage of that.

 

Not really more complicated than this.

 

Outlasting Frazier in Manilla


I just don't see the question mark on Ali's determination even pre-exile. When he needed to show determination he did. And it got him through some very tricky patches. What more can one ask for?[/QUOTE]

Where did I say there was a question mark on ali´s determination pre-exile? Just because I said that I think that he was more determined post-exile - btw. this word was never intended to be used out of the context of the other words it was put down with, those words combined should describe what I meant - doesn´t mean there was a question mark on his determination pre-exile. The world is not black and white, you know.

 

I disagree, but we can never know for sure. What we do know is that Ali survived blinded against a man that had many an opponent beaten before the opening bell. Louis never proved himself like that.

To say the least. I feel pretty certain that Louis wouldn't have survived that round against Liston.

I think you're very wrong. Ali was very comfortable with being pressed by an aggressive opponent, much more comfortable than Louis was with an elusive one.

 

You are faulting pre-exile Ali for not overcoming challenges he didn't face. That is very strange.

Louis never did anything even remotely close to outlasting Frazier in Manilla? What does that tell you about his determination then?

Bottom line: Ali overcoming Liston is much closer to overcoming Louis than anyone Louis overcame is to Ali.

 

None, because he never faced a fighter skilled in this before that time. Liston's a solid shout, but his left had become too damn slow at that to be really solid here, he might have succeded if he'd counterjabbed to the body some more, but I doubt it'd have made a difference at that point- just too big a gap in speed at that point in sonny's career.

I personally think you can see more evidence of defensively adept boxers giving Ali some issues in the Jones and Young fights as well. Would have been interesting to see Ali against HW Charles, Conn and Walcott at their best, imo.

 

To summarise Bodhi's and Swarmer's arguments: Ali never overcame challenges he didn't face, therefore he couldn't overcome Louis. Norton is valid to use when it comes to how Ali faced calculated pressure, even though Ali was clerly past prime for Norton. But Walcott is not valid to use when it comes to how Liston faced feinting and movement, since Louis was clearly past prime for Walcott.