Joe Louis past-prime in 1941? Claims "tiredness" for Billy Conn fight

Joe handled it admirably, but let's not forget that he'd only had had 4 four fights in the previous 6 years while Ali had had about 20 - including a tough fight with Foreman, a brutal trilogy with Frazier and three very, very tough fights with Norton himself in a similar timespan.

I don't think it's unreasonable to believe that this might account for the difference in attitude to a significant degree. If Joe had had that many fights in the previous six years and already met Walcott three times, he perhaps also would be less keen on another meeting.

Ali was anyhow clearly more jaded at this stage than he had been earlier in his career.

 

Joe didn't avoid anybody that's for sure. There are a few fights he could've done, but them not happening I don't believe were his fault. Just circumstances or his manager. That being said, yes he faced ranked contenders which is ideal, problem is most of them were mediocre. The ATG's he did fought (while not at his peak) he either lost 2 or drew with sans Max and the 2nd Walcott fight (which he was losing as well till the ko). As for the thread.... I believe Louis probably was a little stale, but I believe it had more to do with Conn being that good imo.

 

Louis famously came in dehydrated due to the foolish conceit that he wanted to be under 200 so he would not be seen as beating up a "little guy".

In my opinion fighting Baer in '42 he may well have been at his absolute peak!


Because he still had about the same physical skills, showed great speed there, but also had much EXPEREINCE gained fighting swarmers, boxers, sluggers...

His best performance may have been Schmelling.
but head to head against all comers?

Give me the '42, immediately pre-war Louis. Like Ali before the exile.

The experience he gathered fightingmany styles must have helped, & he was a little heavier too.

How Louis rallied for a 13 round KO while being outfoxed & dehydrated...
Impressive.

And Conn may have been less just foolhardy than not able to avoid the Louis pressure, though both likely played a part.

 

I'm thinking Franklin could have flooored Louis once before losing on a late round stoppage, but it would've been a fight, for sure.

 

I agree that he was past his peak by 1941 due to constant training for competition, and I'll get to that further down this rather protracted and rambling submission. (This would be a lot briefer if I was a lot sharper, but I'm rather distracted with other matters at the moment, so out of focus a bit. Apologies for that.)

Regarding Billy Conn I, Joe wasn't always Jack Blackburn's unquestioning acolyte, and did do certain things contrary to Blackburn's tutelage. One famous example which Blackburn publicly took him to task for was the obstinate refusal of Louis to take the benefit of a maximum count after a knockdown, instead always getting up as quickly as he could.

My belief is that Joe was correct in not taking the risk of losing the count like Jerry Quarry famously did against George Chuvalo. If you do want a situation where not falling to the floor or taking the benefit of an eight or nine count cost somebody egregiously in a Louis bout, you can have Schmeling II, where holding onto the ropes to avoid going down, then getting up as quickly as he could when he did go down, resulted in Max sustaining serious and decisive injuries. Joe was on fire that night, but does Schmeling get wrecked with that body shot, then have his head nearly torn off if he plays it smart instead of suicidally courageous? Does Max actually survive round one if he drops the first time he gets stunned, then takes eight and nine counts from Arthur Donovan to collect himself and make Louis wait for him to get up?

Fortunately, Joe never paid for his propensity to bounce up quickly from a knockdown like that, although Braddock really did race after him in their opening round.

Now, another well know item of disobedience to Blackburn where Jack did prove correct was prior to Conn I. Louis was convinced by sportswriters that he needed to come in light for Billy, for speed. Blackburn warned him that he'd lose serious strength by draining himself, that he was older now, more physically mature, would be weaker and dehydrated under 200 pounds, and had previously paid the price for that in Schmeling I. Sure enough, Conn was able to seriously stun him in a way that wouldn't have happened if Joe was at full strength. "Chappie was right. I wasn't strong at that weight." Ironically, the fact that Billy was able to hurt a weight drained Louis induced Conn to go for the knockout against his corner's advice, creating the opening Joe needed to end matters.

Years later, Joe would come in at 203 for Bivins in August 1951, and again find himself to be too light and weak to take out a more ring worn Jimmy. (It's not just weight of course, but how that weight is lost. Is it water weight, body fat, or lean tissue? All you need to do to screw yourself over is dehydrate.)


Louis himself always said Max Baer was his peak performance. It's well known he said he felt like he could have fought for three or five days, and explicitly rated Max Baer over the Schmeling rematch in terms of his physical capabilities. Ignoring the fact that Maxie had an injured right going in (and indeed, all of the Larruper's best shots in that one were left hooks) to just focus on what the Bomber's doing, this is the outing where Joe's mobility and speed look to be the very best of his career. Early in the opening round, he does a textbook slide from an attempted right and counters with a double hook as he backs to the ropes then bounces left to mid ring, exactly as Ed Haislet would shortly line illustrate it for his classic text, Boxing Simplified.

Backing towards the ropes shortly after, he does a neat skip to the right before resuming normal movement. Before the legendary opening round concluding slug-fest where Louis leaves Maxie covering in a neutral corner as the bell rings, most of his movement is defensive countering and caution until he knows he can withstand the Larruper's artillery.

Completely overlooked is the fact Joe's triple hook knockdown of the elder Baer brother to conclude round three is the fact those were the final three hooks of a QUINTUPLE hook combination delivered with full power, keeping his balance and position after the first two hooks miss. For me, those five consecutive left hooks are the greatest single instance of the Bomber's entire athletic career, and we have it on film.

Where does his absolute peak of development end? For my money, it's Godoy II in June 1940. Like most, he doesn't like being crowded, and no longer the cutie of his early amateur days, he doesn't retreat comfortably anymore either, but he and Blackburn work closely together for this one, devise an effective plan for countering Arturo's low advance, and the Chilean gets ripped apart in their rematch.

Here's the finished version of Joe Louis who would have stopped Rocky Marciano. Following Marciano-Louis in October 1951, Charley Goldman was asked how it would have gone if Joe was in his prime, and Rocky's trainer replied his charge would have knocked out Louis more quickly because "You don't come at Rocky Marciano!" But Godoy II and the opening round of Max Baer proves that Joe wouldn't necessarily come at the Rock during the Bomber's peak, and Marciano's face could be ripped apart just as easily as Godoy's was in June 1940. Past peak or not, Louis knew how to stop the likes of Frazier and Marciano from June 1940 to Simon II in March 1942, and the physical capability to successfully carry out Godoy II on any version of either opponent over those 11 title defenses prior to his wartime hiatus for military service.

During his time in uniform, Louis remained physically active of course, performing boxing exhibitions and other duties, many related to matters of public and troop morale. Military service is hardly obesity inducing couch potato work, yet as he passed from his 20s to his 30s, he claimed his weight got as high as 234 pounds before he resumed his postwar career as heavyweight champion. That's exactly what 28 year old Jack Dempsey wrote he weighed when he commenced training for Tommy Gibbons, and it suggests something of how much more both Louis and Dempsey might weigh in a day and age when minimizing weight was not such a priority.

Jack Blackburn's admonitions to Joe not to cut too much weight for Conn I suggests that Louis himself, not his trainer, was really at fault for coming in too light. At what point does Joe's prime end? It ends with Simon II, and Blackburn's death less than a month later. Mannie Seamon was a fine trainer, but Louis was not going to get any better without Blackburn, and I don't think we missed much in terms of Joe's performance between Simon II and Conn II. He said the last time he felt like himself was for Mauriello, but he did have a little help from an aggressive Tami, had shed wartime ring rust with Conn II, and the action only lasted a couple of minutes.

Abe Simon II and Buddy Baer II were fine displays (although he was a little overanxious for the Simon rematch), and he came in at a weight where he was stronger, now seeming most potent in the 206-208 range of poundage where he also returned against Conn after the war. (218 for Charles was obviously too high though.)

 

Being drunk is more important. But the most important thing of all is to never sober up!:good I will be much happier for you if you never sober up enough to read any of that drivel. (It sucks not being a drunk. I hate sobriety, but just not man enough to handle the hangovers which follow drunkenness.)