Hey everybody, I havent posted in the classic section in quiet some time and i am not sure if this has been posted before but Monte did a really good video on Louis, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R78hdxpRfws&eurl=http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis_ibro.html
The video dose highlight some key points that many here seem to miss. Louis's underrated defence and his use of oponents forward momentum against them for example.
I know there are some good, knowledgeable posters on this board but I quit posting a couple of years ago because # 1 I dont have time. and also dont have the patience anymore to school kindergarteners and deal with people who don't know that they don't know (like Revolver). I do want to respond to the post by Dempsey 1238, who seems to be a good poster, that I am a Marciano hater. That is not true. The only piece I have written on him is compeltely fair. I simply said IMHO he is a little over rated being considered top 5, but that his place could be argued into the top 10. Recently I received an email from a poster saying he was debating someone who claimed Marciano ducked good competition which I find to be ridiculous. He fought the best that was available at the time. Here was my response to that question: "No I don't think Marciano ducked anyone. His last active year was 1955 and then he retired in 1956 with no fights that year. In 55 he defended against Don Cockell and Archie Moore, the latter was rated the # 1 contender. Here are the Ring annual ratings for 1955: Rocky Marciano, Champion 1. Archie Moore 2. Bob Baker 3. Tommy (Hurricane) Jackson 4. John Holman 5. Willie Pastrano 6. Nino Valdes 7. Johnny Summerlin 8. Bob Satterfield 9. Young Jack Johnson 10.Ezzard Charles As you see Patterson was not ranked among heavyweights in 1955 so claiming that he ducked Patterson is ridiculous. Neither is Liston in either 55, 56, etc. Now Marciano did only make 6 total defenses and rest on his laurels. Had he decided to defend the title a couple of times in 56 his choices would likely have been Willie Pastrano who was on a nice run and would later win a light-heavyweight title, but he would not have been considered a threat to Marciano. There was Nino Valdes Valdez but he was beaten in 52 by Harold Johnson,and in 53 by Archie Moore, Billy Gilliam and Bob Baker before he beat Charles. He would have gotten a title shot in 55 but lost to Moore in May and Moore was given the shot instead. Pretty straightforward. Bob Satterfield was kod in 2 by Marty Marshall in 54 and won a rematch by decision the same year, but in early 56 he lost back to back decisions to Joe Lindsay and Archie McBride and would not have been considered for a title shot had Marciano fought another year. Bob Baker was ko'd by Moore in 54 and lost a close decision to Tommy "Hurricane" Jackson in Feb 56 and would lose another close decision to Jackson in Sept 56 likely would not have gotten a shot due to timing. Hurricane Jackson would have been one of the most likely contenders to get a shot at Marciano, he was ko'd in 2 rounds by Valdes in 54 and lost a close decision to Patterson in June 56 in a title eliminator, however that fight likely would not have happened had Marciano not retired. Jackson would have probably gotten a shot at Marciano. Certainly Marciano would have been favored over Jackson in 56 and would probably have knocked Jackson out as Patterson did in 57. And Patterson, had Marciano not retired, would have been a year away from the heavyweight title and would not have gotten a shot until '57. So no Marciano did not duck anyone."
Excellent post, Montrose. Ive not see this hot potato explained so objectively and succinctly on any boxing board. Like a good police procedural, you connected all the dots.
I dont see Cox's reason in ranking say Dempsey or a few of his top ten over Marciano. 6 title defenses are pretty good when nearly most of em had a 7 or 5 title defense mark imo. Only Ali, Louis and Tommy Burns(Lineal wise of couse) made it to the double digets. I take marks off of Dempsey for his 3 year break, and failing to face Wills. Jeff for retiring than defended against Johnson, And of couse the quot "Show me a fighter whose undefeated and I'll show you a fighter who hasn't fought anybody." I suppose when Chavez was 90-0. I suppose he didnt fight any one? Or Joe Louis before the Schmeling fight?? Did Ray Robinson fight nothing but bums for his first 40 or so fights?? Marciano had Walcott, Charles, and Moore, and lesser contenders like LarSarza, Layne and Matthews, who were good fighters,(Not great) Tiger Jones went the distant with nearly EVEYONE though, and yet Marciano gets slack for failing to ko Jones?? In 2 bouts of couse. We all look at weight, but most other heavyweights MOST times did not defend against plus 200 pounders. Only Buddy Baer scale over 200 pounds, for Joe Louis, Perhaps Two Ton Toney, but does that mean they are better wins than Charles or Moore??
I agree. He also beat the best of his time - hardly an earth-shattering revelation. Was Mike Tyson all that much better than the guys Marciano defeated?