Joe Louis. The 8 black men who got away.

So. When was Rosenbloom rated as a heavyweight? I couldn't find him rated in that division from 1935 to 1939 when I went over it yesterday or again today. Couldn't find him. Why do you demand Louis defend against a man never rated in his division.

And when was Fox rated at heavyweight? I couldn't find him either?

I have been posting NBA ratings for the years when Louis was champion.

A lot of guys were beating other guys in those days. The top 100 or so fought each other often. So context means everything. Rosenbloom's win over Nova, for example, came before Nova was rated by the NBA. And one also has to respect that the raters were there and possibly took into account bad decisions and the like which we might not be aware of. Or freak injuries or whatever. And bad defeats such as Rosenbloom being KO'd by Adamick.

 

Perhaps a better question to ask, is whether more of these men would have got title shots, it they had benefited from the same investment as many of the white contenders.

 

"Louis himself declined a match with him! Read this again."

No reason to read this again. I simply do not consider it strong evidence. It is a statement from the 21st century, not a primary source and not in any way referring to a primary source. I am not saying it might not be true. Only that no good evidence is produced that it is true. Making a big deal out of it smacks of bias to me.

 

Your focus has been on TITLE DEFENCES.

Re Jeffries, you’re trying to switch horses on your own premise.

Jeffries defended 8 times, 0 times against black contenders of whom there were several, most notably Jack Johnson.

No, one obviously does not count the exhibition vs Hank Griffin. No title on the line.

The respective objects of the bout were for Jeff to KO Griffin before the expiry of the limit or, conversely, for Griffin to last the limit. Griffin lasted the limit so he “won”.

If you want to “accept” that bout and be cute, then Champion Jeffries lost a fight to a black man WITHOUT the title on the line - and still persisted in refusing a title shot to ANY black man.

You’re now also trying to include Jeffries’ effort, as a formerly retired and come backing fighter, to REGAIN the title from a black man as some sort of “credit” to him when we’re talking DEFENCES.

Jeffries didn’t want that fight - just as he didn’t want it when he was Champion. Sure, the $$$ helped as an incentive but Jeff was clearly coerced by a racist white public to fight Johnson - and Jeffries made reference to this fact many times post career.

Johnson did NOT firmly draw the colour line. There were several attempts, at the least, to set up fights with Langford and Jeanette.

But the biggest CLANGER in this regard is that you deliberately omitted and continue to omit Johnson facing Battling Jim Johnson.

REPEAT: Jeffries did not defend against ANY black contenders.

I wouldn’t be accusing anyone else of trying to twist the data.

Oh, and you mentioned Jeffries offering a private fight? We’ve all heard that one.

So, for you, a totally unsubstantiated, self aggrandising story is worthy of the discussion and at worst, constitutes itself as an “official” Title fight/Defence” on offer but declined.

Seriously, Lol man. AS IF Johnson was the one who ever exhibited any fear and reluctance to engage Jeffries in the ring.

Did you ever wonder when that story began circulating and by whom?

You say you’re simply presenting “evidence” - so perhaps a primary source and date is at hand for that little story?

 

You summed it up perfectly and I would just add that if Mendoza wants to start pretending exhibitions are title defenses then Joe Louis defended against a ton of black fighters in exhibitions and I would add that Louis’ exhibitions were a lot more like real fights than the friendly sparring exhibitions most people expect from such fare.

 

Wow i'd never overly realised Jeffries had never faced a black contender.

Certainly seems like he should be the focus of such a scrutinizing thread far more than Joe Louis!

 

Jeffies didn’t DEFEND his title against any black contenders. Period. The Griffin match was an EXHIBITION. The Johnson match was Jeffries attempt, as challenger, to REGAIN the title, not a DEFENCE. Jeff was heavily coerced into making that comeback - he didn’t want to fight Johnson of his OWN volition either when he was reigning Champ or when he succumbed to pressure and agreed ti make a comeback to WIN BACK the title for the white race. Simples.

 

BOOOOOOOM!!!!

 

Jeffries didn’t DEFEND his title, PERIOD.

I’ve already discussed with you via PM.

I also highlighted to you that you have NEVER included Louis’ comeback vs Charles as a DEFENCE therefore you were applying double standards.

Your response? You replied that “if it made me happy” yes, you would accept the Charles fight as defence (particularly as a defence against another black opponent for Louis).

Lol, no, that was to make you “happy” - trying to “bargain” with and hedge on your original “logic” in order to allow at least one defence against a black man for Jeffries.

No dice.

You also claimed the Griffin exhibition as a DEFENCE for Jeffries. That’s some seriously desperate reaching.

Also, you claimed Jeffries KO’d Martin at some point during Jeffries’ career. Please show me the money (primary source) on that claim also - the ONUS is on YOU to do same - it’s not up to the other party to disprove your OWN, unsubstantiated claims.

Also, please provide the evidence for, and the weight you’re giving to the claim that Jeffries offered a private fight to Johnson.

I’ve already told you, even if true, it means NOTHING in a discussion regarding actual title defences and again, if true, it was actually cowardly on Jeffries’ part - especially since Johnson had put out the immediate challenge to Jeff after annihilating Jeff’s brother (who Jeff cornered for) in 5 rounds - and Jeff said NOTHING and did NOTHING re that challenge.

As to the cellar fight, as far as I’ve read, Jeff is the only source for same and he only “revealed” the story several years after he retired - when Jeff was prone to tell a few other porky pies - like Langford decking Johnson and deserving the decision, Jeff being drugged before Reno and the big clanger - claiming Johnson was no more than a second rater even after he trounced Jeff in Reno.

So it was Jeffries himself providing the “evidence” of which you speak without you actually citing your primary sources?

Big Jim Jeffries, was a proven, NOT so reliable, source.

And since he avoided Johnson’s challenge during his reign, even after his own brother was flattened by Johnson and then found himself trounced trying to REGAIN the title back from Johnson - well, there’s your likely motive for Jeff to concoct such a story as the cellar fight invitation - to save face. Sad.

 

Jeffries wasn't even considered the lineal champion by most sources at this point - NOT THAT LINEAL IS WHAT ANYONE IS TALKING ABOUT

Your entire persona is summed up right here via this disgusting attempt to shill people all of whom are infinitely smarter than you. But it's what you do, as a matter of fact it's ALL you do.

You are a disgrace to honesty and integrity.

All long term members know what i am talking about and most short term members will have already seen right thru you.

At what point do you take a hint? You've long stroked your immense ego via likes.......why don't you go and have a little looksy at all the likes posts in this very thread and the Joe Louis vs Harry Greb thread that go the hammer against you got. Then have a look at the quality of the members liking said posts.

I know, i know, the vast majority of us are the idiots not your good self. It's the rest of the world. Like, do stupid people know they are stupid?

Another absolute corker - you continually used to hammer a certain poster (and a bloody well respected knowledgeable poster at that) about how many times he'd been banned as if this was some sort of indictment against him.

I bet bans don't count for much of anything now that you've been banned multiple times and for LONG periods of time.

Normally i'm not one to pile on someone when they are getting hammered from multiple fronts but you're another animal altogether

I did warn you not to quote me but that big mouth and ego of yours just couldn't resist now could it.