Joe Louis. The 8 black men who got away.

Ok so to be clear you are saying there were absolutely zero black fighters that deserved title shots during Louis' twelve year reign other than the two that received them and the disbursement of 18 to 2 is a fair and accurate merit based result. Interesting.

 

I believe the war years between 42-46 prevented the bout with Bivins from occurring and others. There is no data that would drive someone to believe Louis was afraid to fight anyone. Joe more than likely knocks Bivins out as he was an inferior talent vs Louis. Louis beat him in 51 and also in an exhibition that was fought as a real fight in 48.

 

https://boxscorenews.com/lib/mdetai...s.com/blacks-and-the-brown-bomber-p90-178.htm

Here is a good article on viable black contenders that “could” have received a shot against Louis. For my money Louis beats them all and rather easily. As for the main fighter in focus - Roscoe Toles I found that the bout was a real bout in all but name only. That it was a last minute change to an “exhibition” due to a contract stipulation regarding fighting Primo Carnera. Which was already a done deal. The fight was actually listed for years as a real bout by several sources.

 

Do you know how many ?

 

Great article and like Dempsey, management guided Louis' opponent selection and you can be sure they did it for the same reason and that was risk/reward, period.

 

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/jlouis.htm

Here’s cyber boxing zone record for Louis. As you can see they don’t list Toles as an exhibition. Some other notable exhibitions that Louis fared well in - other than Elmer Ray - was Cecil “Seals” Harris and a way past prime version of Louis knocking out Nino Valdes in 1 round.
Louis allegedly had as many as 90 exhibitions in addition to these bouts for the army. When he returned after the war years Louis was a well worn Husk of the fighter that destroyed the opposition of the late 30s. Struggling with Jersey Joe and losing to Charles is no indication that leading contenders of color would of fared well against Louis in the 30s. They would not have - he was a cut above all colors at that time. A special fighter.

 

Louis’s decision to donate his entire purse to the army reserves was his choice and he could have done that with any fighter he met. He only fought Simon because he was a popular draw which is fine but NOT because he was the most qualified[/QUOTE]

Louis was in the army. The only reason he was allowed to fight was to sell war bonds. I think criticism of fighting Simon in March of 1942 is overblown. It was done for the war effort against a guy they thought would draw.

 

"most are better than some of the men he gave title shots to"

But that is not the relevant issue. Here is Joe Louis' 1941 schedule

Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer
Billy Conn
Lou Nova

So Louis defended against more men in this one year than most champions, including Dempsey and Marciano, did over their entire reigns. All were rated at one point or another. Conn and Nova were ranked #1, and Baer was also a top five contender. Those three would be a pretty good year for anyone.

Musto is probably the weakest of them, but he had beaten Franklin back in 1939, and would beat Bivins that September. Franklin had not yet beaten him. As the 7th opponent in that year, is he actually worse than Beshore, Rademacher, McNeeley, Zyglowicz, Daniels, Coopman, or several others that other champions pulled out of obscurity for easy defenses?

The real issue is where would the men Louis didn't fight rate in a list of his defenses? How many would make the top ten?

Here is my list, in order of challenge, of Louis' top ten challengers:

Tommy Farr
Max Schmeling
Tony Galento
Bob Pastor
Arturo Godoy (2)
Buddy Baer (2)
Billy Conn (2)
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Jersey Joe Walcott (2)

Would Lem Franklin rank somewhere in the top ten defenses or challengers? No way. After getting KO'd by Pastor, who in turn had been stopped by both Louis and Conn, he went out in one to Harry Bobo and Joe Muscato, and was later KO'd twice by Savold.

Jimmy Bivins--debatable. His biggest wins were at light-heavy. The wartime Bivins might rank somewhere between six and ten, but the postwar Bivins, losing frequently, would not be top ten. And the only time Louis was available to be challenged was after he left the army.

Elmer Ray--I put him in the top five, behind Schmeling, Walcott, and Conn. He was the one missed opponent who would have enhanced Louis' legacy significantly.

Many of the names being thrown out would not rate with Bettina or Baksi as challengers.

 

When exactly would Turkey Thompson have been considered one of Louis’ best defenses??? Was it in 1939/40 when he was fighting middleweights and light heavyweights, 1941 when he failed to beat Pastor, Simon, and Musto or after the war when he was a slow fat lumbering mediocre lump?? Because, not coincidently, his best run was during the war when the division was depleted and even then it was a pretty mediocre run.

 

Of course some of the so-called (armchair) historians on here will ignore the elephant in the room that you dont start seeing those names he supposedly ducked pop into the ratings even semi regularly until after the war started, the division was depleted, and Louis was in the service and unable to defend... But they will keep harping that he ducked Bivins who didnt regularly weigh in even as a small heavyweight until two years into Louis' tenure in the army. Theyll pretend Louis waited until Bivins got old to fight him despite the fact that Bivins was five years younger and turned pro three years after Louis' was already a champion. It was Louis' second to last fight and Louis had come out of a two year retirement just the year before. Despite all of this Bivins looked like an intimidated middleweight next to the larger Louis and spent most of the fight running, clinching, and throwing very little to avoid getting knocked out.

 

Some of these arguments are now getting just strange, and show a breathtaking lack of historical perspective.

Thompson was not at all a force in the heavyweight division up to Louis going into the army. Somewhat in and out, he did have some big wins later, topped by a one round KO of Elmer Ray in 1943. But he lost three times in 1944, the last by KO, and was inactive in 1945 and 1946. In other words, he was not ranked or even fighting at the time Louis returned and was able to defend the title. Thompson made a fair comeback in 1947, with a win over a no longer ranked Godoy, and got back into the top ten. In 1948 he lost to Bivins, himself losing by this time to all the top men, and to Valentino. He was not rated that year as Louis retired. He made a comeback in 1949 with some KO's including one over a fading Murray, which got him to #2 in The Ring rankings at the end of the year, but Charles was now the champion. Charles defended in the fall against Valentino, who had beaten Thompson 2 of 3 including the rubber match in 1948.

When was Thompson supposed to fight Louis? There were always several other guys out there more worthy.

You ignore timelines, which are critical for an historian. And any kind of historical perspective. Godoy and Murray were long out of the rankings when Thompson beat them. Murray in fact defeated Thompson in 1944 when both were closer to peak.

Thompson might have been the most dangerous puncher Louis didn't meet, and he was fairly durable, stopped only twice in 72 fights, but also seemed to have stamina problems and was in and out, losing rather frequently. Pastor beat him twice. Valentino two out of three. And there were plenty of other mediocre performances mixed in with his KO's.

 

Fox was never rated at heavyweight or in any division after 1939. His best work was at light-heavyweight.

He lost his title shot to Bettina in 1939, and Bettina was in turn beaten by Conn.

Bettina had by far the better heavyweight resume, and in fact reached the number two ranking at heavyweight. His heavyweight scalps include Gunnar Barlund, Buddy Knox, Red Burman, Pat Valentino, Jimmy Bivins, Harry Bobo, Gus Dorazio, Lou Brooks, Buddy Walker, Curtis Sheppard, Eddie Blunt, and Joe Muscato.

Bettina was a far more legit challenger to Louis than Fox.