Joe Louis top5 h2h ?...i don't see it

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by BlackCloud, Jan 12, 2013.


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  1. Nightcrawler

    Nightcrawler Boxing Addict Full Member

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    :thinkinteresting post. which heavies do you seeing losing fewer fights than louis does if they were forced to fight the top 20 all time? this is how i tend to think of ranking h2h fighters. i think lewis, ali and possibly tyson loss fewer. holyfield, louis, liston, foreman are on the next tier. frazier, marciano, wlad are on the next if i had to do it on the spot (though i am pretty ****ing high right now:rasta)
     
    Nightcrawler, Jan 12, 2013
    Nightcrawler, Jan 12, 2013
    #91
  2. BlackCloud

    BlackCloud I detest the daily heavyweight threads Full Member

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    Burt,

    Been following the game for almost half a century and been around some training camps in my time.

    Some of the posts on here are, imo , based more on thinking with the heart as opposed to the head.

    I could quite as easily have used Marciano as the name put forward to get a point across.

    Don't get me wrong, Joe and Rocky were great but Joe could be hurt early and outboxed and Rocky was just to damn small to compete with some of the skilled big guys.

    I have spent a lot of time reading through this forum over the years and if anything Rocky gets overated more than Joe in this repsect.....some posters never pick against him in a fantasy match, regardless who he is up against and that smacks of hero worship as opposed to logical thinking.

    Sure i am an Ali fan but i fully ackowledge the risk he would take in facing someone like a prime Lennox or Tyson as these guys have the skill to go with the firepower.

    It all boils down to the styles thing again.

    Put an average 215lb+ guy in with Joe or Rocky and they both put a beating on him no doubt.
    Put a 240lb guy in there with some skills and it's a whole different ball game.

    As for some who say size does not matter, try getting in the ring with a 200lb heavy then go a round with a guy weighing 40lb more who knows what he is doing.....trust me it makes a huge difference.
     
    BlackCloud, Jan 12, 2013
    BlackCloud, Jan 12, 2013
    #92
  3. burt bienstock

    burt bienstock Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    For gosh sakes, Billy Conn started fighting as a lightheavyweight when he was 22 years old in 1939...He only fought at 160 pounds when he was but
    18 years of age,without one bout as an amateur, and was morphing into as tough a lightheavyweight as anyone in history, though not a concussive puncher Conn beat every heavyweight he fought sans Joe Louis...
    So Billy Conn was a true lightheavyweight just as much as Ezzard Charles who also started his great career as a terrific middleweight...
     
    burt bienstock, Jan 12, 2013
    burt bienstock, Jan 12, 2013
    #93
  4. Theron

    Theron Boxing Addict banned

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    :D:good
     
    Theron, Jan 12, 2013
    Theron, Jan 12, 2013
    #94
  5. janitor

    janitor VIP Member

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    Douglas is a fighter who basicaly only had one good fight, which had as much to do with his opponents preparation as anything else. Louis is not going to turn up for the fight badly prepared and lacking motivation. Even if it is going arse over tits, he is going to keep his cool and pull out the win.

    Realisticaly you would have to favour Louis very heavily. This is probably going to be more like Douglas Holyfield to be honest.

    The difference between Louis and Tyson, is that you don't have to attack Tyson based on fights he "nearly lost" or "might have lost in a fantasy fight". Douglas is a fighter who actualy did beat him.
     
    janitor, Jan 13, 2013
    janitor, Jan 13, 2013
    #95
  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    About the Conn thing. First of all, Conn didn't box and move. I can't really believe people are still saying that, that's debunked. Second, Conn got knocked out. If he'd somehow survived the 13th, you'd have to presume he'd be doing extremely well to win the fourteenth...so he'd basically be in a box off with Louis in the 15th for the fight, having nearly been KO'd in the 13th.

    But he didn't survive. He got knocked out.
     
    McGrain, Jan 13, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 13, 2013
    #96
  7. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace

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    In terms of h2h he's in my top 2.

    There's only one man I pick to beat Louis and that's Ali.
    There's only one man I pick to beat Ali and that's Frazier (he doesn't do as well across the board though).
     
    lufcrazy, Jan 13, 2013
    lufcrazy, Jan 13, 2013
    #97
  8. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Just as importantly, Louis would only need to win those three rounds. He wasn't impossibly behind.
     
    LittleRed, Jan 13, 2013
    LittleRed, Jan 13, 2013
    #98
  9. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Well basically, that's what I wrote.

    13: He won
    14: He probably would have won given Conn's condition if Conn had somehow survived
    15: A box off for the result favouring Louis given that Conn was all but Ko'd in the thirteenth in this scenario.
     
    McGrain, Jan 13, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 13, 2013
    #99
  10. Bill1234

    Bill1234 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Louis is obviously deservedly rated very highly head to head, but I do see his chin being a problem against hard punching fast starters like Foreman and Tyson. Louis overall may have been better, but he Louis was decked many times in his career and Foreman and Tyson were great at bouncing guys off of the canvas repeatedly in a short time span to force a stoppage.

    I rate Louis #1 overall at heavyweight, but not #1 H2H at heavyweight.

    I think Ali, Holmes, Foreman, and Tyson would beat him in prime vs prime match ups.

    Marciano and Lewis would be 50/50 match ups.
     
    Bill1234, Jan 13, 2013
    Bill1234, Jan 13, 2013
    #100
  11. lora

    lora Fighting Zapata Full Member

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    Conn's such an underestimated fighter compared to some of his contemporaries imo.there are times i wonder if he wasn't the best post-greb light heavy.
     
    lora, Jan 13, 2013
    lora, Jan 13, 2013
    #101
  12. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think you have a point.
     
    McGrain, Jan 13, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 13, 2013
    #102
  13. rusak

    rusak Well-Known Member Full Member

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    janitor, you know you never say anything about styles. I asked you a pretty simple question. Imagine Louis in Tyson's place and explain to us what exactly is keeping Louis from getting knocked out. All I hear from you in response is some incoherent mumblings about preparation and motivation. That's not good enough.

    Which of the big guys that Louis fought had the hand speed and combination punching of Douglas? Answer: none. In a fight against Louis, Douglas' reach, hand speed, and more advanced footwork will mean that he gets off first. So explain to me what Louis is going to do to keep himself from getting knocked out.

    We know Louis isn't going to jump on the back foot all of a sudden. And even if he tried that, the result would likely be disastrous for him since that's not his style. If he tries to "get low" and bob and weave, his foot speed will be even slower, and he's not going to do this any better than Tokyo Tyson. So what is he going to do? Plod forward and get his head knocked off? Sounds about right to me. :thumbsup
     
    rusak, Jan 13, 2013
    rusak, Jan 13, 2013
    #103
  14. dyna

    dyna Boxing Junkie banned

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    Does Louis even have faster footspeed than Douglas sub 200?
    It's really bad when you neither have the reach nor footspeed, nor the bobbing and weaving to reach your opponent.
     
    dyna, Jan 13, 2013
    dyna, Jan 13, 2013
    #104
  15. Synthetic Decay

    Synthetic Decay Active Member Full Member

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    His footspeed and lack of quick transitions make him a huge underdog against bigger fighters with skill/speed. He would get caught in punching range with his upright methodical/slow there to be hit style.

    I would favor Tokyo Douglas over Joe every single time barring punchers chance.
     
    Synthetic Decay, Jan 13, 2013
    Synthetic Decay, Jan 13, 2013
    #105
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