Joe Louis, Underrated or just not that great???

That's not what he's saying (I don't think). You implied that Louis was getting generous scoring in several other fights where he happened to KO the opponent. This was a basis for your claim that the Farr fight was not an erroneous one-off on Donovan's part. Which fights are these?

 

Itymariti,

This would be a good research topic. To flush this out, we need to look at the fights that were competitive, and went a few rounds.

Did Louis get favorable judging? Here's what I have at my fingertips.

Donovan gave Tommy Farr 1 round of 15. Utter BS.

Donovan only gave Godoy 5 rounds of 15 in the first fight with Louis, and that is poor judging. The fight is out there, on flim. I have seen it. It is very close.

Louis managers and promoters picked Frank Fullam to ref the rematch for the 2nd Walcott. Frank Fullam was either incompetent or crooked. Frank Fullam had Louis up 5-2 ( presumably he scored the other rounds even ) for Louis, who was most certainly down on points prior to scoring a come from behind KO. Utter BS again. That should satisfy McGrain's question.

So there are three examples. You seem pretty level headed here. What do you think?

I would really like to know the scorecards in the first Louis vs Schmeling match, and the scorecards in the first Louis and Pastor match. Donovan was the referee in both matches. If Donovan's score card was close in the first Schmeling match, its case closed. I am going to ask the best researcher I know if he has these score cards.

 

You're overlooking the fact that boxers, especially ATG champions with good trainers in their corner, adapt to their opponents. If you can spot that Louis would have trouble plodding in from the outside against a rangy fighter like Wlad, I am sure Louis and Blackburn wouldn't overlook it either. Since Wlad is chinny and poor on the inside, they would almost certainly tell Louis to aggressively get inside and beat on him from close range with those fast hands and devastating combinations of his. It would be a pressure fight from the opening bell, and would end much like his 2nd fight with Schmeling, albeit maybe in 2-3 rounds instead of 2 minutes. Or if Wlad just clinches all night, he might even last the distance.

The two Schmeling fights are one reason why theoretical H2H predictions are a poor guide to a fighter. In one fight Louis was ground down slowly and lost, in the other he won in devastating fashion. How come, if it was the same fighter each time? The simple reason is in the first fight he had a weakness which his opponent spotted and exploited with his strength. In the second fight Louis played to his strengths and Schmeling's weaknesses. It was all about fight strategy & tactics both times - not a case of which man was better, but which man fought the cleverer fight.

 

Cmon - Liston, Foreman, Frazier etc might not be favourites but they all have a "real chance" to beat Louis. ANY top 10 ATG heavyweight has a chance to beat any other heavyweight, except in rare cases of horrible style matchups (e.g. Frazier vs Foreman; Liston vs Ali).

You are also forgetting that Walcott, Schmeling and Marciano actually *did* beat Louis, so they have a definite chance to beat a "prime" Louis.

There is no such thing as a certain win or loss in boxing. Any fight can be ended with 1 punch. And when the underdog is a great proven heavyweight, that is especially true. I wish people would drop this idea that you can predict fight matchups with certainty. Nothing is certain in boxing except that there will be shocks, upsets, and flash KOs as long as the sport continues to exist.

 

We have a man giving his "expert "opinion on one fight that he has only seen highlights of, accusing a long dead referee and a judge of being

crooked /incompetent /or both, all to bolster up some wild claim that
Louis's managers had preferential treatment at MSG.
If this was the case and given Louis had only 2 close calls at MSG why were the returns fought elsewhere?
Surely as Champion,and ,with this so called, in the pocket officiating ,it would have made sense to have the rematches back at MSG?

The lengths one man will go to to avoid saying well ,actually I was wrong,or even, I might have overstated my case in my eagerness to prove my point.
As you say beyond pitiful.

 

Ok.

I don't think that's at all outrageous. It depends what you like. Louis was consistently doing the cleaner punching, Godoy being more aggressive. The Associated Press had the same score as him.

Well, the Associated Press had it even:

http://news.google.co.uk/newspapers...40843&dq=louis+walcott+associated+press&hl=en

The footage we have of it is extremely limited, so I wouldn't feel justified in declaring this another example of biased scoring.

That would be interesting. I can't find anything.

 

I think Louis matches up very well style-wise with modern Heavies, actually.

 

Also consider this: Louis/Conn I was a close fight. Not all of the action is on tape, but I remember thinking that Conn was no more than a round or two up, if at all. The cards were 7-5, 7-4-1, 6-6 - in my estimation, a fair reflection of the way the fight went, and, if anything, generous to Conn. This fight wasn't in MSG, but it was a close fight over which Louis didn't get the benefit of the doubt.

 

Keep back tracking on what you and learn how to count.

I have seen far more than you have on Louis, so hold your forked tongue behind your cheek.

 

Louis did not have many close fights, so looking at the cards in his close fights / competitive is paramount to this discussion. :deal

I have already stated three cases, and two of them had horrible scoring by the ref. We need to look more competitive fights Louis was in and see more scorecards.

It seems you agree with me that the ref's score was off in the re-match with Walcott. Do you also think Farr won more than one round? Don't be afraid to tel the truth even if it rubs against what ever silly pleasure you are having in this thread.

 

Remember I am talking about the ref's score cards in these fights.
I count two score cards by ref in Louis fights that were way off. The 1 round given to Farr, and the 2nd Walcott.