Joe Louis V larry holmes

YOU only mentioned 1 fighter LEM FRANKLIN
AS far as Lem Franklin, he did have a good run from 1940 to the Febuary of 1942 where he was KO'd in 8 by Bob Paster then went on to lose 8 more fights and was KO'd 6 times out of those 8 he lost 8 out of his next 10 fights.... AS far as TOny Galento he beat Eddie Blunt,Leroy Haynes and Lorezo Pack.....Joe Walcott beat Elmer Ray and Jimmy Bivens to get shot at Louis ....You can not fight everyone but at least Louis tried to fight the most deserving so GET your Facts strait...YOU are say Lem Franklin should have NOT gotten Ko'd by Pastor because he should have been fighting Louis (who already stopped Pastor.......WHO DID louis duck in your opinion ?

 

Occasio beat Jimmy Young for the title shot. David Bey beat Greg Page for his. And Holmes got 5 million for the Frazier fight, so legacy wise it wasn't a great move, but buisness wise it was brilliant.

 

Doesn´t change the fact that these guys were inexperienced, green and far from beeing real danger to Holmes.

 

Two questions Bill.

1. What title shot did Bey earn automatically when he beat Page?

2. Did Holmes really truly get $5mill?

These questions are just for Bill if possible as i know there are at least 3 or 4 peeps here with great memory

Well if anyone can speak expand on question 2 go for it. My memory keeps giving me a lot less moola than $5mill.

 

I'd have to see the rankings at the time for the first question, but it sure didn't give Page the right to fight Larry at that point.:tong

Larry got 5 million for taking the Frazier and Frank fights. That was around the time he ditched King and he got the contract to fight those 2 for 5 million from Murad Muhammad.

 

No, but they still earned it. It's not like Evangelista was exactly a threat to Ali either.

 

This wasn´t about Ali but about magoo´s statement that Louis fought unworthy opponents or gave rematches to guys who weren´t worthy when Holmes only fought worthy opponents. And that´s just wrong.

 

And it sure wasn't for the right to fight Holmes tho the eventuality of the matter has you fooled.

:good

 

Whilst I rate Louis as the #1 heavyweight of all-time, Ali and Holmes are the (only) two fighters I'd give an ever so slight edge over him head to head. Louis can turn the tide at any stage, but I think those two would survive and squeak a decision against him.

Holmes: Split decision.


Other heavyweights vs Louis: I'd give Liston, Lewis and Tyson a 50/50 shot, Tunney and Johnson both have the style to maybe pull it off, but I can see everyone else losing.

 

That is correct, yet you had previously made this statement:

If I only mentioned one black fighter ( according to your own words ), and only discussed Franklin ( according to YOUR own words ), then kindly explain what the hell you're talking about. Additionally, you claimed that Franklin ( or others ), were beatenby John Henry Lewis or Tony Galento. Franklin never fought Galento or Lewis, so not only are you misquoting me, you're also arguing with misinformation..

Yes, you have repeated this numerous times, and therefore I will attempt to once again explain my position to you. The fact that he lost numerous fights ( including Pastor ), occurred after the fact, when he had won 19 straight fights, including a KO win over Abe Simon in October of 1941. Low and behold, Simon ends up in the ring with Louis a few months later, while Franklin takes a fight with Pastor. My point, is that Louis should have given Franklin the shot, NOT SIMON. Franklin should have been fighting Louis, NOT PASTOR. As for Louis beating Pastor, and Franklin's decline, losing multiple fights, this is again giving Louis the unearned benefit of hindsite. You steadfastly claim over and over again that Holmes ducked Greg Page, and I full heartedly agree with you. But someone could just as easily take your same approach by stating that immediately after Holmes chose not to fight Page, Greg went on a terrible losing streak ( much like the one Franklin went on), and lost to numerous fighters, including some that Holmes himself beat. Personally, I do not feel that this gets Holmes off the hook for refusal to fight Page, as I still think it was a clear ducking. The difference between you and I however, is that you're only applying this philosophy to one side of the argument.

You can't have it both ways..

Fine, but what does this have to do with Franklin?

Let's talk about Elmer Ray for a moment.

From July of 1940 -March of 1947 ( seven years ), Elmer Ray compiled a streak consisting of 65-1. Among these wins were Joe Walcott and Lee Savold among several others. Upon beating Joe Walcott, a rematch was arranged in the spring of 1947, in which Walcott took a close majority decision. Sure enough, Walcott get's the title shot against Louis, but Elmer Ray who's record was infinately better than Walcott's, went without a sniff of the title for the better part of 7 years. Following the Walcott loss, Ray won seven additonal matches including a win over Ezzard Charles, compiling a grand record of 72-2 within an eight year period. Yet, still no shot at Louis.

I am not maintaining that Louis ducked anyone in the purest sense of the term. I realize that the ratings were corrupt during the 30's and 40's, and they did not often work in favor of black fighters. This was not Louis's fault. My only point is that he COULD HAVE faced BETTER men than the ones he actually faced. Additionally, you seem to have the position that Holmes ducked everyone including his own mother, but don't take poilitics into consideration in the same way that I make concessions for Louis. You have gross double standards going here. What's more, you have time and time again thrown out names of fighters that you felt Holmes avoided like Gerrie Coetzee and John Tate, when in fact, it has been explained to you by numerous posters inluding myself, why those fights never occurred.

 

Well it is pretty hard to know the rankings and such of the time when this all happened 5-8 years before you were born. Who do you think he should have fought instead?

 

Larry Holmes would win this fight. Joe Louis could be outboxed and had trouble dealing with a great jabber. Larry Holmes had one of the most dominant accurate jabs in history. Also he had a great chin, recuperative powers, and excellent boxing skills. Joe Louis was a great at improvising and could possibly win a rematch. His power, accuracy, and handspeed would give Holmes trouble. Larry Holmes would keep Louis on the outside and take advantage of Louis' plodding style and score enough points to win the fight. Wouldnt be the greatest fight because Holmes would dare stand and trade with Louis' but will in spots to gain his respect.

 

This is a bold statment.

You can always find fault with a title reign and you can always use hindsight.

Over the course of his career, Louis fought 34 fighters curently ranked in the top 10 and 19 curently ranked in the top 2. He clearly did the era justice on paper.

I have argued in the past that the top black contenders of this period were fighting at a handicap, but even if they hadnt been white heavyweights would have dominated the rankings of Louis's title reign leading up to the war.

Guys like Trammel, Tomphson and Franklin could have made a splash, but they would have been edged by guys like Farr, Pastor, Nova and Conn.

 

If he tried it in one spot he get knocked into next week.

 

Joe Louis