Joe Louis V larry holmes

mr. magoo · Aug 3, 2008

Bummy Davis said:

mr. magoo said:

You have a head of stone kid...Lem Franklin had a good 2 yr RUN but was Ko'd by Pastor( Who was White) and Pastor was beaten by Louis already and then Franklin was beaten in 8 of his next 10 fights Frankin being Ko'd by Lee Savold(who was white) 2 times, Billy Conn(who was white) KO'd Pastor and got the title Shot...Elmer Ray after getting Ko'd in 1 rd by Turkey Thompson, fought a long string of nobodys with losing records until 1946 when he beat Lee Savold and won a split over Walcott, However Ray lost in an elimination in 1947 to Walcott and Walcott got the shot because he Beat Ray in a rematch....You can defend Holmes but are picking hairs with Louis and have a weak arguement......By the way Turkey Thompson who Ko'd Elmer Ray in 1 rd was beaten 2 times by Bob Pastor and Pat Valentino who were White...Louis some years defended his title once a month 6 months in a row would be intitled to a soft touch now and then but based on your very WEAK arguement of Elmer Ray and Lem Franklin, Joe Louis aquitted himself very well even though the best Black fighters of his day may have not been the best fighters of his day...Could we argue that Franklin should have gotten a shot before Simon, we could, but Simon also had a good win over Walcott and Eddie Blunt but when Lem had to step and fight Lee Savold and Pastor he was Ko'd anyway so it is a very weak point in my opinion..So as far as repeating Debunked points, enough already with Lem Franklin and Elmer Ray
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You seem to have ignored half of my previous post, but anyway let's move on. As for having a head of stone, I think its fair to say that you're just as guilty of being stubborn here as I am. Yes, Bob Pastor defeated Lem Franklin, shortly following his impressive run in early 1942. The problem that I have with this, ( as mentioned several times before ), is that Louis is recieving the benefit of hindsite for not facing Franklin. When Franklin completed his 19-0 winning streak in late 1941, which included a KO of Abe Simon, he was about as qualified as anyone for the chance to fight Louis, and more so than most. Rather than facing Franklin in early 1942, Louis opted to give Simon a rematch, despite his recent loss to Franklin, as well as having a less impressive resume as of late. In the meantime, Franklin lost to Pastor as you so repetitively point out. In my opinion, this does not give Louis a pass for choosing the less deserving of the two challengers. If we are going to make an exception for Louis passing up a highly qualified challenger on the basis that he beat men who later beat that same challenger, then similar concessions could be made for Holmes, who afterall defeated Berbick, Bey and Witherspoon who all defeated Page. In fact, I would argue that Franklin's resume leading up to the Pastor loss, was a tad more appealing to the eye, than pages was in 1983. Let me once again clearify, that I don't think Holmes should recieve a pass for refusal to fight Page, and dumping a title in the process. I think it was actually most disgraceful. I'm simply trying to illustrate how ridiculous your ongoing hypocracy really is. You are rating one fighter by who he either faced nor didn't face, using hindsite results. Then in a matter of a single sentence, are rating another fighter using a completely different set of standards. No one will take you seriously with this kind of reasoning.
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Bill1234 · Aug 3, 2008

Just for the record Larry Holmes- "I want Coetzee":

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janitor · Aug 3, 2008

mr. magoo said:

=janitor]
As Holmes detractors often tend to do. Iam simply returning the favor.

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The key diference is that in Holmses era there were fighters holding versions of the title.

In Louis's era the only way to the top was through Louis and if you genuinely established yourself as the best challenger you had a date with destiny.

The bolded statement basically says all. These fighters who were ranked above the better black men of the era, were rated above them for a very obvious reason.

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You can read too much into this.

The top black contenders were fighting some of the better white contenders and getting mixed results.

The records of men such as Lem Franklin and Elmer do not necessarily suggest this. Franklin was well deserving of a title shot in 1941 - the period in which the U.S. was at war with Europe. Elmer Ray would soon emerge after.

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Franklin had a window of oportunity but he droped the ball at the crucial moment.

Ray hit his stride when Louis was old and becoming inactive. He had to wait a bit for his claim to be recognised, but Louis's team eventualy agreed to meet the winner of Walcott Ray and of course Walcott won.

Speculative terms such as " would have ", do not convince me of a potential reality... Lem Frankiln convincingly beat Abe Simon twice. Abe got two title shots against Louis, while Franklin never recieved one.............That's reality............

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Even if we go with the fights that took place the top white contenders were beating the top black contenders in the pre war period.

Abe Simon was a big boxofice draw.

The second fight was to raise money for the Army/Navy releif fund and was a bit of an improvisation. It was a fight where the sole purpouse was to make the biggest gate possible and it was no secret that this was the purpouuse.

When I tghink about Louis's charity fights against Baer and Simon, they efectivley took his two biggest grosing recent fights and duplicated them.
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janitor · Aug 3, 2008

Bill1234 said:

I think his speed and chin would be able to get him through the moments where he had to stand and trade. I don't think he'd win the exchanges, but he'd earn Louis's respect.
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Trading with Louis is a seriously bad idea.

You only have to let him through once and you can be screwed even with a good chin.

Let him get on the inside and you are gone.

If Holmes wants to win this fight he better enter it on the asumption that he is not going to trade with Louis if he can humanly help it.

Bummy Davis · Aug 3, 2008

janitor said:

The key diference is that in Holmses era there were fighters holding versions of the title.

In Louis's era the only way to the top was through Louis and if you genuinely established yourself as the best challenger you had a date with destiny.

You can read too much into this.

The top black contenders were fighting some of the better white contenders and getting mixed results.

Franklin had a window of oportunity but he droped the ball at the crucial moment.

Ray hit his stride when Louis was old and becoming inactive. He had to wait a bit for his claim to be recognised, but Louis's team eventualy agreed to meet the winner of Walcott Ray and of course Walcott won.

Even if we go with the fights that took place the top white contenders were beating the top black contenders in the pre war period.

Abe Simon was a big boxofice draw.

The second fight was to raise money for the Army/Navy releif fund and was a bit of an improvisation. It was a fight where the sole purpouse was to make the biggest gate possible and it was no secret that this was the purpouuse.

When I tghink about Louis's charity fights against Baer and Simon, they efectivley took his two biggest grosing recent fights and duplicated them.
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:good
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Bill1234 · Aug 3, 2008

janitor said:

Trading with Louis is a seriously bad idea.

You only have to let him through once and you can be screwed even with a good chin.

Let him get on the inside and you are gone.

If Holmes wants to win this fight he better enter it on the asumption that he is not going to trade with Louis if he can humanly help it.
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It's not like Larry would stand in front and go toe to toe with him like he did with Norton in the 15th. I'm talking maybe 5-10 punch exchanges, tops.

Bill1234 · Aug 3, 2008

Carmelo Modica said:

The only way to beat the prime Joe Louis is to stick to him like glue and hit him with uppercuts while bobbing low. Joe Louis likes to fight long range, he has the best accuracy in HW history, he would catch even the fastest boxer, Ali included. Larry Holmes is one of the last guys I would pick to beat Joe Louis.
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I disagree. And, who would put ahead of Holmes to take him?

mr. magoo · Aug 3, 2008

janitor said:

The key diference is that in Holmses era there were fighters holding versions of the title.

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Let me ask you something. Do you think that title unification matches occur the instant that a fighter acquires a belt? The answer is no. Title unifications can often take months or even years before one even occurs. The same holds true today as it did 25+ years ago. Between 1978-1987, the WBA title changed hands 10 times, with only two of it's holders sporting a single defense. That's 10 holders in 9 years, with a combined effort of only two tite defenses. Additionally, most of the men who held and lost this belt, were either men who Holmes had previously beaten or would soon beat, and many of them were beating up on each other. Additionally, I would claim that although Holmes reigned during an era where there was a divided heavyweight title, its no different than an era where there was one champion who was not giving title shots to perfectly qualified contenders - alpha champs or not.

In Louis's era the only way to the top was through Louis and if you genuinely established yourself as the best challenger you had a date with destiny.

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I think genuinely is a term that is used rather losely here. Elmer Ray and Lem Franklin were genuine contenders, regardless of the results of later matches, AFTER Louis had denied them title shots.

The top black contenders were fighting some of the better white contenders and getting mixed results.

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What mixed results? Between July of 1940 to February of 1947, Elmer Ray's record was 65-1, including wins over Joe Walcott and Lee Savold. His sole loss during this time period came against Turkey Thompson ( another black fighter. ) Additonally, after losing a very close decision to Walcott ( another black fighter whom Ray had beaten ) Ray won 7 additional fights, including Ezzard Charles, making for a grand record of 72-2 over a near full decade, with no losses to white fighters during this time. How is going 72-2 over nearly a decade, losing only to two black fighters coincide with the claim of having mixed results against some of the better white contenders? Personally, I think this claim of yours holds very little water.

Franklin had a window of oportunity but he droped the ball at the crucial moment.

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Not really. After having won 19 strait fights with 17 stoppages or KO's, including wins over Abe Simon, Tony Musto, Jimmy Bivens and Eddie Blunt, Franklin was the man who should have been in the ring with Louis in early 1942, not Simon. The fact that Franklin fought Pastor rather than Louis at the same time, is simply giving Louis the benefit of hindsite. One could easily say that Holmes beat men like Bey, Witherspoon and Berbick who beat Page, close to the time that he ducked Greg, but this sounds just as ludicrous when making excuses. Furthermore, I will point out that while Holmes was giving shots to men like Frank, Frazier, Rodriguez and Smith, during a time when he should have been fighting Page, at least none of the previously mentioned fighters had lost to the challenger that Holmes was avoiding. Louis on the otherhand, fought Simon who just had his ass handed to him by Franklin......BIG DIFFERENCE.......

Ray hit his stride when Louis was old and becoming inactive.
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Most of the men who Holmes was accused of ducking, hit their stride when Holmes was getting old. Why should we cut Louis any extra slack?

He had to wait a bit for his claim to be recognised, but Louis's team eventualy agreed to meet the winner of Walcott Ray and of course Walcott won.

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Why should Elmer Ray have been made to wait nearly a full decade and close to 75 fights to get his title shot, when afterall, he had previously beaten Walcott? Why should Ray have even needed to give Walcott a rematch? Lastly, Why didn't Ray get a shot after winning 7 strait matches following the Walcott loss, including a win over E. Charles? Sounds to me like Louis was avoiding the man..

I will close by asking you this, with the simple request that you give me your honest and unbiased response. Of all the fighters that Louis had previously given title shots to over the years, such as Billy Conn, Arturo Godoy, Al Mcoy, Jack Roper, Johnny Davis, Tony Galento, Abe Simon, Tony Musto, Gus Dorazio, etc. Would you have paid more to see these men fight Louis than say Lem Franklin or Elmer Ray?

Even if we go with the fights that took place the top white contenders were beating the top black contenders in the pre war period.

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These principles clearly do not apply to Lem Franklin or Elmer Ray, as they were clearly very deserving challengers during the early to mid 40's. This pre-war crap is just a smoke screen.

Abe Simon was a big boxofice draw.
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So was Marvis Frazier, due to his obvious affiliation to his father, but does that give Holmes a pass for refusal to fight the best of his period?

The second fight was to raise money for the Army/Navy releif fund and was a bit of an improvisation. It was a fight where the sole purpouse was to make the biggest gate possible and it was no secret that this was the purpouuse.

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So politics had to do with Louis not necessarily fighting the most worthy challengers? Hmmmm.....Sounds like a familiar scenario, and one that differs greatly with your initial postion that the best black fighters had mixed results with the best white fighters.

When I tghink about Louis's charity fights against Baer and Simon, they efectivley took his two biggest grosing recent fights and duplicated them.

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More politics?
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JohnThomas1 · Aug 3, 2008

Bill1234 said:

Just for the record Larry Holmes- "I want Coetzee":

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A couple of years prior, when Coetzee had no title and was worth just normal money Holmes said something very close to "i'm not fighting that goddamn South African". He hammered the **** out of his country and was in no small way never going to fight him.

When it was worth HUGE money he had a sudden change of heart on Apartheid.

Bill1234 · Aug 4, 2008

JohnThomas1 said:

A couple of years prior, when Coetzee had no title and was worth just normal money Holmes said something very close to "i'm not fighting that goddamn South African". He hammered the **** out of his country and was in no small way never going to fight him.

When it was worth HUGE money he had a sudden change of heart on Apartheid.
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Holmes could always be bought over to some extent. He wouldn't be bribed to lose, but he would fight King Kong on top of the Empire State Building if he was payed enough. He was a buisness man, not the typical buisness-dumb fighter. The only guy he would have fought for little money was Foreman.

janitor · Aug 4, 2008

mr. magoo said:

Let me ask you something. Do you think that title unification matches occur the instant that a fighter acquires a belt?
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I apreciate that there are obstacles to unification.

It should be noted however that Holmes actualy gave up a belt he already held to avoid a title match and efectivley set up a new version of the title by giving credibility to a previously irrelevant organisation.

I think that he should be criticised for that.

What mixed results? Between July of 1940 to February of 1947, Elmer Ray's record was 65-1, including wins over Joe Walcott and Lee Savold.
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Their results were mixed while Louis was actualy active. That is the problem.

Ray built up an impresive run but it only started after Louis went into the army and simply couldnt fight him. It must also be noted that it was a run built up againt a depleted division.

After the war fighters retained their pre war rankings so fighters who had been inactive for years like Billy Conn leapfroged over the heads of guys like Bivins and Ray who held the division through the war.

His sole loss during this time period came against Turkey Thompson ( another black fighter. )
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Who Bob Pastor had just beaten twice.

The same Bob Pastor who Louis had beaten twice.

Additonally, after losing a very close decision to Walcott ( another black fighter whom Ray had beaten ) Ray won 7 additional fights, including Ezzard Charles, making for a grand record of 72-2 over a near full decade, with no losses to white fighters during this time. How is going 72-2 over nearly a decade, losing only to two black fighters coincide with the claim of having mixed results against some of the better white contenders? Personally, I think this claim of yours holds very little water.

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What ultimately screwed him was that he lost to Jersey Joe Walcott who got the title shot instead. He had to wait for his title shot and his luck ran out at the closing moment.

Not really. After having won 19 strait fights with 17 stoppages or KO's, including wins over Abe Simon, Tony Musto, Jimmy Bivens and Eddie Blunt, Franklin was the man who should have been in the ring with Louis in early 1942, not Simon.
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I think that Franklin would have made a better challenger but I dont think his case was overwhelming exactly. I think that a rematch with Billy Conn or indeed the rematch with Buddy Baer that took place was a much better use of Louis's time. Franklin had losses to Musto and Simms both of who Louis had disposed of before his winning streak and he only hit the peak of his run after Louis was in the army.

Remember that for the last two fights of his career before the war Louis was a comisioned sergeant and could only fight with the permision of the armed forces.

Most of the men who Holmes was accused of ducking, hit their stride when Holmes was getting old. Why should we cut Louis any extra slack?

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The crucial diference is that Louis always gave a rematch when one was waranted even when he was past his best and inactive.

Why should Elmer Ray have been made to wait nearly a full decade and close to 75 fights to get his title shot, when afterall, he had previously beaten Walcott?
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Because quite simply there were people ahead of him in the que.

Why should Ray have even needed to give Walcott a rematch?
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Because there was some controvesy about the fight that Ray won and of course they were 1-1 at this stage.

Lastly, Why didn't Ray get a shot after winning 7 strait matches following the Walcott loss, including a win over E. Charles? Sounds to me like Louis was avoiding the man..

I will close by asking you this, with the simple request that you give me your honest and unbiased response. Of all the fighters that Louis had previously given title shots to over the years, such as Billy Conn, Arturo Godoy, Al Mcoy, Jack Roper, Johnny Davis, Tony Galento, Abe Simon, Tony Musto, Gus Dorazio, etc. Would you have paid more to see these men fight Louis than say Lem Franklin or Elmer Ray?

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I would pay more to see some of them fight Louis than Franklin or Ray but not all.

Either way I am not a believer in taking a champions worst title oponent and finding one who is theoreticaly better. A long reigning champion is entitled to the ocasional tune up against a guy like Roper or Paycheck.

These principles clearly do not apply to Lem Franklin or Elmer Ray, as they were clearly very deserving challengers during the early to mid 40's. This pre-war crap is just a smoke screen.

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Not at all. There simply wernt many black fighters ranked in the top 10 in the period from 1936-1941 and it was in large part due to losses to guys like Pastor, Musto and Gallento.

Look at the rankings and see for yourself.

So was Marvis Frazier, due to his obvious affiliation to his father, but does that give Holmes a pass for refusal to fight the best of his period?

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The critical diference id that Louis did not hand his title to Lem Franklin and set up a new one in order to fight Abe Simon.

So politics had to do with Louis not necessarily fighting the most worthy challengers? Hmmmm.....Sounds like a familiar scenario, and one that differs greatly with your initial postion that the best black fighters had mixed results with the best white fighters.

More politics?

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Joe Louis joined the army at the outset of 1942. Once Louis was in the army he was banned from fighting except with special dispensation to raise money for the army navy releif fund. This meant that he could only take infrequent fights that would draw the biggest gates.

His proposed schedule was:

Buddy Baer rematch

Abe Simon rematch

Billy Conn rematch (canceled)

Here is the situation over the period you are talking about:

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1940 Joe Louis, Champion

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Buddy Walker

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Pat Comiskey

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Otis Thomas

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1941 Joe Louis, Champion

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Melio Bettina

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Turkey Thompson

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Louis enters the army, anual rankings for 1942 reflect situation after Louis stops defending the title.

1942 Joe Louis*, Champion

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Tami Mauriello

Turkey Thompson

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Harry Bobo

Big Boy Brown

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Lou Brooks

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Joey Maxim

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Bummy Davis · Aug 4, 2008

janitor said:

I apreciate that there are obstacles to unification.

It should be noted however that Holmes actualy gave up a belt he already held to avoid a title match and efectivley set up a new version of the title by giving credibility to a previously irrelevant organisation.

I think that he should be criticised for that.

Their results were mixed while Louis was actualy active. That is the problem.

Ray built up an impresive run but it only started after Louis went into the army and simply couldnt fight him. It must also be noted that it was a run built up againt a depleted division.

After the war fighters retained their pre war rankings so fighters who had been inactive for years like Billy Conn leapfroged over the heads of guys like Bivins and Ray who held the division through the war.

Who Bob Pastor had just beaten twice.

The same Bob Pastor who Louis had beaten twice.

What ultimately screwed him was that he lost to Jersey Joe Walcott who got the title shot instead. He had to wait for his title shot and his luck ran out at the closing moment.

I think that Franklin would have made a better challenger but I dont think his case was overwhelming exactly. I think that a rematch with Billy Conn or indeed the rematch with Buddy Baer that took place was a much better use of Louis's time. Franklin had losses to Musto and Simms both of who Louis had disposed of before his winning streak and he only hit the peak of his run after Louis was in the army.

Remember that for the last two fights of his career before the war Louis was a comisioned sergeant and could only fight with the permision of the armed forces.

The crucial diference is that Louis always gave a rematch when one was waranted even when he was past his best and inactive.

Because quite simply there were people ahead of him in the que.

Because there was some controvesy about the fight that Ray won and of course they were 1-1 at this stage.

Lastly, Why didn't Ray get a shot after winning 7 strait matches following the Walcott loss, including a win over E. Charles? Sounds to me like Louis was avoiding the man..

I would pay more to see some of them fight Louis than Franklin or Ray but not all.

Either way I am not a believer in taking a champions worst title oponent and finding one who is theoreticaly better. A long reigning champion is entitled to the ocasional tune up against a guy like Roper or Paycheck.

Not at all. There simply wernt many black fighters ranked in the top 10 in the period from 1936-1941 and it was in large part due to losses to guys like Pastor, Musto and Gallento.

Look at the rankings and see for yourself.

The critical diference id that Louis did not hand his title to Lem Franklin and set up a new one in order to fight Abe Simon.

Joe Louis joined the army at the outset of 1942. Once Louis was in the army he was banned from fighting except with special dispensation to raise money for the army navy releif fund. This meant that he could only take infrequent fights that would draw the biggest gates.

His proposed schedule was:

Buddy Baer rematch

Abe Simon rematch

Billy Conn rematch (canceled)

Here is the situation over the period you are talking about:

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1940 Joe Louis, Champion

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Buddy Walker

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Pat Comiskey

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Otis Thomas

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1941 Joe Louis, Champion

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Melio Bettina

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Turkey Thompson

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Louis enters the army, anual rankings for 1942 reflect situation after Louis stops defending the title.

1942 Joe Louis*, Champion

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Tami Mauriello

Turkey Thompson

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Harry Bobo

Big Boy Brown

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Lou Brooks

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Joey Maxim

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Good response Janitor and to add to the RAY argument, after his 1 rd Ko loss at the hands of Turkey Thompson he did not fight a top ranked guy until 1946 when he beat Savold and split vs Walcott but lost the rematch and the title shot IN 1947.....AND I AM SURE lOUIS WOULD HAVE FOUGHT LEM FRANKLIN IF HE beat Bob Paster and Lee Savold but he was KO'd by both....Still there is no comparison in the way Louis fought the best of his era and the way Holmes or his management or Alpha group arangened for him to bypass many of the toughest men of his era, many of them did not have the total boxing skills of Holmes but had strenghts that may have been his kryptonite but we can only guess because the fights never happened....Louis on the other hand proved that he was the better fighter than Walcott, Godoy, Baer,Schmeling,Conn,Simon,Pastor...I will say some of the time these alphabet groups are an injustice but we also know Don King controlled most of them...Still Holmes gave up a title not to fight...and Riddick Bowe did the same not to fight Lewis...Strategy ?..Joe Louis just fought as many as the best fighters of his era as he could and that was his stategy and that is why most old timers and knowlegable fight men call him the # 1 heavyweight Champ of all time
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joe33 · Aug 4, 2008

Louis for me by ko mid to late

BUDW · Jun 13, 2009

Joe chops down Larry gets a late knock down wins by TKO

robert ungurean · Jun 13, 2009

Mendoza said: ↑

Anyone who watches the films knows Holmes jab could not miss a Louis. Louis had a low guard, predictable / slow feet, and had trouble with lateral movement.

Louis struggled with boxers like Pastor, Conn, and Farr ( to a degree ) , and Walcott. The flims and news read show us this.

Holmes took a much better punch than those who troubled Louis, fought smart, had far greater range. He also likely hit harder, though some might argue Wlacott hit harder. For my money Holmes would score a TKO over Louis much the same way Schemling did.
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Great insite,my onley dissagrement is I take Holmes by UD.

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