Joe Louis vs Black 1930s top contenders

these guys were good fighters, i am not sure if any of them could beat louis but

i gotta say eddie blunt has the coolest name of them all haha

hello mr blunt,

 

I don't entirely agree with that reasoning. You can very well lose to opponents that have lost to fighters you yourself have beaten. Norton's win over Ali and Douglas's over Tyson are two famous examples, but there are of course more. It is hard to face every dangerous fighter out there, but it has been done. Johnson and Ali as well as Tyson during the late 80's are names that pop up at HW. I think Louis's 25 defenses should have given ample opportunity to face most of the guys Suzie Q named. That he didn't makes that record a shade less impressive IMO (but still very impressive of course).

Also the losses most of them suffered to guys that Louis beat might be due to that black fighters seems to have fought very ill-prepared many times because of bad management etc. They were probably also quite often forced to take dives. If this happened against mob connected Galento, for example, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised. Suzie's quote "my dream would be to face Louis while being allowed to do my best" was quite illuminating IMO.

 

Black fighters had mob connections as well as non black fighters and in defence of Louis he fought John Henry lewis who beat 3 of those fighters on the list ,Tiger Jack Fox who scored a KO over 6"6 Trammel was KO'd by John Henry Lewis in 2, Lewis in return was Ko'd in 1 RD by Louis. . Trammel was also KO'd by Eddie Blunt in 1 but Blunt was beaten by Red Burman who Louis Ko'd in 5, by the way Burman was KO'd in 2 by John Henry Lewis earlier in his career. Natan Mann beat Blunt also and was Ko'd in 3 by Louis...do you really think Blunt or Trammel should gotten a fight for the title before Lewis or Mann or Burman. Tony Galento was a tough fighter and I dont want to hear that Baloney about the Mob connections because Galento was Italian, NO Galento could hit and was a tough ******* and if the Mob only wanted Italians WHY WAS LOUIS CHAMP FOR SO LONG? Galento deserved a title shot fought and Beat the Black fighters that No one wanted to fight and Rocked Joe Louis but was beaten by the greatest ever Joe Louis

 

Galento might well have earned his title shot, but it seems like several of the guys Suzy named did as well. That they had a couple of losses (which contenders didn't?) doesn't really change that, especially considering the conditions they often fought under.

Patterson, London, Williams, Folley, Wepner, Lyle and Shavers are some of the contenders Ali fought that had previousy lost to guys he had beaten. I think he had good reason to take them on anyway.

 

The only reason Ali could fight complete bums like Ruddi Lubbers and Richard Dunn and Coopman and Evangelista and Wepner is because he was a star to the NON Boxing fan...None of them knew that Wepner was a mediocore club figher they just knew Ali was fighting him. The point is Louis beat the men that BEAT those men, why should he fight the Losers. Ali was a peoples star, he was a celebrity so he could have fought Pee Wee Herman and sold tickets or had veiwers

 

Sure, Ali fought a couple of bums (Wepner had been in the Ring's rankings for a year or two, though, as had Evangelista), as did Louis. But he also beat all noteworthy fighters during his era, which Louis didn't.

I he hadn't beat Patterson, Terrel, Folley, Quarry, Bonavena, Lyle et al. it wouldn't have made a dramatic difference, but it would have made a difference. Especially if one of them was named by one of Ali's most difficult opponents as the best fighter he ever faced.

 

Max Baer, Max Scmeling,Jim Braddock,Jack Sharkey,Jersey Joe Walcott,Jimmy Bivins, Billy Conn,Rocky Marciano,Ezzard Charles,John Henry Lewis ARE ALL PRETTY NOTEWorthy....not to mention that Red Burman,Tommy Farr,Al Ettore,Arturo Godoy, Palino Uzcudun,Tony Galento, Natan Mann, and John Henry Lewis beat a lot of those FEARED Black Heavys on Suzie Q's list and Louis retired with a record of 69-3 with 55 KO's and defended his title 25 times

 

If we are going to get into picking both their records apart it will get complex.

They both fought a few tomatoe cans but then we have to cut them some slack because they both fought twice as many ranked contenders as any other heavyweight champion in history. Any criticism of their records is therfore being made from a verry high baseline.

However:

Louis

Jimmy Bivins is probably the most deserving contender Louis faied to defend his title against. He was on top of the division for much of the period while Louis was in the army. Beyond that Lem Franklin might have been a better choice of title challenger than a rematch with Abe Simon. Louis could have been more active in the postwar period while he was declining and taken in a few top fighters of the period like Elmer Ray.

Didnt rematch Tommy Farr. Farr went on a loosing streak after his fight with Louis but probably got robbed a couple of times in that loosing streak.

Ali
Should probably have rematched Foreman, Norton IV, and Young. Like with Louis most of the guys who missed out missed out late in Ali's caree when his powers were declining and he was becoming less active.

Conclusion

Ali failed to meet less deserving fighters during his reign as champion but was less willing to give rematches to challengers who gave him close or controvertial fights. Also the contendership picture was a lot more straightforward in Alis era with white and black contenders competing on a more level playing field. In Louis's era it was harder for black contenders to scale the rankings and Louis generaly fought whoever the press and public thought he should.

Of course you can ask for too much.

 

I never said that he didn't beat noteworthy opponents, only that there were noteworthy opponents during his own era he didn't face. That he beat the best of the bunch of the black HW:s is not enough for me. That would be like Ali not having to face Patterson, Williams and Folley just because he beat Liston.

 

The fact is though that the majority of the best contenders in Louis's era were white.

I think that a few deserving challengers did get sold short but its not just that Walcott beat them a lot of the top white contenders like Bob Pastor were beating them.

 

But it's quite possible that the bad conditions they were forced to fight under made them underachieve, isn't it? Someone recently said Walcott was beating the living daylights out of Abe Simon, before succumbing to fatigue and getting KO's in the middle rounds. He hadn't eaten in 48 hours before the fight, or something like that.

I hold Louis in very, very high regard, but I've always contended that there's something strange with trhat just 2 of his ca 20 challengers were black, considering how blacks started to dominate the division shortly after. Suzie Q have certainly strengthened this suspicions.

 

Janitor, I think we more or less agree. Always nice discussing with you. Cheers!

 

1. There were more contenders to be faced back in Louis' day. Louis fought 71 fights, as far as I can tell, about 50 against men who were rated at one time or another. Ali had 61 fights, about 47 against men who were rated at one time or another.

2. Well, what about champions--Louis fought between 1934 and 1951 and he fought every champion who was active during those years. Ali did not fight Johansson. Not his fault, but he did not.

3. What about the top contenders. Between 1934 and 1951, not including 1943, 1944, 1945, and 1949, when he was inactive, there were 19 men who were champions or ranked as #1 or #2 contenders.
1---Max Baer
2---Steve Hamas*
3---Primo Carnera
4---Jimmy Braddock
5---Max Schmeling
6---Tommy Farr
7---Lou Nova
8---Tony Galento
9---Bob Pastor
10--Arturo Godoy
11--Billy Conn
12--Lem Franklin*
13--Jimmy Bivins
14--Tami Mauriello
15--Elmer Ray*
16--Jersey Joe Walcott
17--Ezzard Charles
18--Lee Savold
19--Rocky Marciano

*Louis never fought

Louis fought 16 of the 19, beating 14. Hamas was ruined by Schmeling in early 1935 and never fought again. Louis should get a pass on him. That leaves Franklin and Ray.

From 1960 to 1978, not counting 1968 & 1969 when Ali was inactive, or 1980 when he had the one comeback fight against Holmes, there were 15 men who were champions or ranked #1 or #2 contenders.
1---Floyd Patterson
2---Sonny Liston
3---Ingemar Johansson*
4---Eddie Machen*
5---Doug Jones
6---Ernie Terrell
7---Zora Folley
8---Thad Spencer*
9---Joe Frazier
10--Jimmy Ellis
11--George Foreman
12--Jerry Quarry
13--Ken Norton
14--Jimmy Young
15--Larry Holmes

*Ali never fought

Ali fought 12 of the 15, beating 11.

Conclusion--One big difference between Louis and Ali is that Louis fought the really tough guys, such as Baer and Schmeling, on the way up. Ali, in contrast, might have been at least a bit protected. He did not fight Johansson and Machen, and only fought Cleveland Williams, Terrell, and Folley a few years later when he was at his peak, and at least Williams and Folley were past theirs.

I do not see an argument that Ali fought them all but Louis didn't. You can pick second level guys out of Louis' era that he did not fight, but you could also do this with Ali--Bob Cleroux, Big Train Lincoln, Roger Rischer, Henry Clark, Gregorio Peralta, Leotis Martin, etc. They weren't the top men.

 

Very impressive summation, Fogey. But my main argument is that during the 30's blacks were not given the same opportunities as whites, and therefore the rankings are somewhat misguiding. Had black fighters had the same benefits as whites I think those rankings would like different.

Louis, besides his outrageous gifts, was probably also the only black during this time that was well managed. Let's not forget that he became the first black in over 30 years to get a title shot. If you look at the how blacks started to dominate the division during the next 30 years it's very hard to put this down to anything but unequal opportunity and even outright discrimination.

Louis was probably the main reason why the situation started to improve rapidly after his career (and probably even during the later stages of it). But during much of his reign it seems that it might have benefitted him, ironically, since he just about never faced black opposition. Probably he would have defeated the best black fighters out there as well, but we can never know for sure.