Joe Louis vs David Tua

I'm not playing word games, you just can't read. This is my last post, Glass.

Holmes shouldn't have been hit like that by a guy like Shavers - the after effects of the punch are absolutely irrelevant and so is Shavers power. What is embarrassing is not being badly hurt by the hardest puncher ever, it's the whole in Holmes' game which a crude slugger took advantage of. If you still do not understand this, I'm not spelling it out again. And he improved so much he managed to lose to Mercado and Cobb

Lmao, Braddock was champ and Walcott was great - if you're gonna tell me they're just journeymen then you can talk to yourself. They both achieved more than Witherspoon and way more than Cooney. Still no mention of Snipes? No mention of Weaver? What about Williams? They puncture a hole straight in your argument.

Another instance of you not being able to read or just using your imagination. At no point have I said good balance is not apart of having good defence - I have said they are sperate things which overlap. Just as distance control is not defence, just as your footwork or positioning is not defence. They are apart of defence, yes - but they are also apart of offense, or movement.

Sorry, why on earth is Wlad relevant? Did Louis jab and grab? No. Did Louis get scared when people tried to hit him? No. Did Blackburn get angry at Louis for not wanting to engage at all? No. If you think that Wlad's title reign - who's entire style revolved around not getting knocked down (and still did over the years) is proof that Louis either has a bad chin or defence?

And the same goes for Holmes. This blanket you want to just throw over the three of them is a flawed exercise. Different fighters bro. I'm chalking Louis' flash knockdowns to a long title reign - just as I chalk Holmes' troubles down to having a long title reign. You could even put a few of Wlad's issues down to being at the top for long time, too.

I named you three. I don't care if you accept them. Anyway, I'm done debating with someone who keeps selectively ignoring things, and is so disingenuous you keep putting words in my mouth.

 

You're the one missing the point man. The answer to the knockdowns problem is simple, styles make fights and **** happens. Ali got dropped by worse fighters (Banks, Cooper and Wepner if you believe it's legit) than the ones that dropped Louis. Holmes was also dropped by an actual 188 lbs nobody with a record of 2-0 (final record of 14-8) in his career. And we both know how their chins and their defensive abilities are viewed.

Louis was already the biggest boogeyman the division had ever seen by the time he had slaughtered both Carnera and Baer. Every fighter, their corners and their mothers tried to find the solution to beating Louis for what was essentially 2/3rds of Louis' career. Godoy tried to go low and fight off the crouch, Conn refused to let him set and took away his balance on the inside, guys like Buddy Baer and Abe Simon wanted to outmonster him, etc etc. Nobody, and I mean nobody in all of Boxing history, aside from maybe Ali or Mayweather, was such a big target in that regard. Johnson could have been had he defended his title vs elite opposition more, but it wasn't meant to be. Still got dropped by a Middleweight despite being a supposed defensive genius though.

And yet despite that, while Louis was in his prime, he only got dropped a mere 5 times in his first 54 fights. Two of them were by Schmeling, who was the only man aside from Conn to find a layered and consistent way of beating a young Louis, and the only man who suceeded in actually beating him out of 35 attempts by other fighters that tried to defeat Godzilla. And it was this fight in particular that led to Louis being more responsible with his left lead. Say what you want about Louis' defence in this fight, but he got hit with a **** ton of shots by a very notable right hand puncher before being stopped. Certainly not a chin issue.

Take a look at both the Braddock and Galento KDs again and you will see they got him after he had already shifted his weight to his front foot after throwing a punch, both basically just pushed him down. The Baer knockdown is iffy, because Louis got hit flush but was also with his back against the ropes and couldn't find his balance and fell. Even if you think it was a proper knock down shot instead of Louis just tripping due to the lack of space, that's still only 3 times in 55 fights he got dropped where it wasn't due to Louis being tagged mid combination due to his offensive mindset.

And in case you think that Louis being dropped due to his offensive mindset is an indication of defensive neglect, then you needn't look further than guys like Benitez and Whitaker who still got dropped just as much despite being primarily defensive.

 

This is the majority of it for me, personally. Louis was primarily committed to knocking you out, even if he did use great technique in that endeavor. Louis backed his own punches in exchanges. You could say he thrived on it, on the whole despite not being a slugger. He's going to be caught coming in, at times. He's also going to get caught between punches, at times. He's even going to wear the odd hail Mary, at times. He's also not going to see the punch that hits him, at times. He also fought some bigger and/or heavier men.

Holmes did have his share of exchanges, but he spent a helluva lot more time than Louis boxing cautiously from the outside pumping that jab. I think that's a fair representation of both.