I learned a lot from you guys that’s for sure! You really got me into the modern skilled superheavyweights. I love them now.....I don’t see any of the classic superheavyweights competing with the athletic big men of today Klitschkos, Lewis, Bowe, Joshua, both Fury’s, wilder, hrgovic, Joyce, dychko, Yoka, Ortiz, and Parker
It's funny, when I first started watching boxing around 05/06. I to was very critical of the current crop of heavies, especially Wlad, but I think your views are so radical due to your ignorance when you are younger, so it's nice to see how your knowledge and views have developed over time, I've definitely mellowed out a lot myself. I find even when I'm arguing or disagreeing with 95% of posters they still have very compelling arguments and I can see exactly where there coming from. I just wish I touched up on my literacy skills in school, or at least proof read my posts more. I'd love to add more to the fountain of knowledge that this forum has, but you guys seem to have covered virtually every base and I can never quite get my words to match exactly what my mind is thinking. Where I used to have a very good scope of the modern scene, it's almost lost on me to an extent, because I went down the historical side of things but I have absoloutley no regrets in doing so. Even when I'm not posting, I still enjoy reading everyone's views and spin on things. You and a whole host of others from the classic really do make waking up in the morning as a devout fan of boxing worth it, I almost find myself to embarrassed to discuss with my friends and casual fans as I just end up rambling on endlessly with no overall point for hours.
How can it be meaningless? They fought under practically professional circumstances and one of them got knocked out according to cyber boxing zone. The programme for the first Louis-Ray encounter at the orange bowl, Louis is listed as “World Champion” and Ray listed as “leading contender”. Of course, officially they were exhibitions, but officially so were thousands of no decision bouts in the New York area weren’t they? I consider these fight more unlicensed than “exhibitions” because guys got knocked out in them. They were competitive. More than hard sparring.
For at least one exhibition with Bivins, the title was on the line. If Bivins had knocked Louis out, he would have been the new champion.
Fighters get floored and knocked out in sparring sessions too. It doesn't make them real fights. Louis himself remarked after his exhibition with Bivins in 1948 that he hadn't fought that hard because "after all, it was just an exhibition."
I think that the case for Louis avoiding Franklin is very weak. There wasn't really that much to avoid for a start. I also don't buy the notion of Louis's management hand picking opponents. He fought less frequently as he got older, but he seems to have always gone after the #1 contender. That is difficult to argue against!
With these unlicensed fights That is always going to be the get out card isn’t it? “It was only an exhibition”. Well what about poor Valentino getting knocked out on film in an exhibition? Did Louis say “I didn’t fight that hard enough against Pat Valentino because it was only an exhibition”? I don’t think so. No, Louis went for it on that particular time. And I suggest, especially when he knocked people out Louis was going at it for real.
Pat Valentino was rushed into a shot at Charles's title too soon after an eye operation. He put up a brave fight, but was knocked out, and it cost him the sight in his right eye and ended his career. He cushioned his retirement with a few thousand dollars for the exhibition against Louis. That's the thing about a real fight. It's not enough that one man is "going at it." They both have to have some ambition to win.
Pat was going for it too if you watch one version of the highlights on YouTube. It’s a real fight and it is a good level.
Franklin destroyed Abe Simon in 5, and Simon got his 2nd title shot instead of Franklin! Franklin was on a 19-0 with 17 knockouts consecutive streak from 1939-1941!
Yes and then he imploded quickly enough. A case for a champion ducking a challenger, has to be based on something tangible. It is not enough to say "This guy looked like a pretty good contender at one point." How many times have the top two heavyweights in the world faced off in the past 20 years? When you answer that, Louis might get a bit of leeway on this!
Franklin's window was a short one however The guy who Louis was getting criticized in the media and among boxing people for not fighting was Lem Franklin. A look at the papers of the era shows that there was, for a time, a huge push for a Louis-Franklin fight. After taking many months of criticism and pressure Louis' people finally relented and agreed to fight Franklin in September 1942 provided he got by Bob Pastor. He failed to do so..but prior to that, Louis gave title shots to Simon and Musto. Both survived 9 and 13 rounds vs Louis. Franklin beat both in 5 and 2 rounds. Whilst its true that he blew his chances by losing to Bob Pastor in 1942, fighting pastor was a hurdle that he probably shouldn't have had to jump by that point. Man had been unbeaten in his last 20 bouts and even defeated a few guys who DID get shot(s) at Joe's title. Franklin came up under the same amateur trainer as Joe Louis. The man named Lammin' Lem as the harder puncher. Hall of Fame baseball player Tris Speaker, an avid fight watcher, called Franklin the hardest-hitting HW he's ever seen. Many people debated that in the press during the 1940s.
Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano were 2 fighters who improved in rematches, Ali fought rematched- Frazier but Frazier FOTC 206lbs was a far greater version of Joe Frazier of II and 3 but all the Ali fights were hell. Ali rematch Norton and beat him but 2nd 2 fights were close. Ali rematched with Liston & Cooper & rematches were easier. Holmes never rematched a tough fight. Thay being said there may have been a few guys Louis met but JL was active & I dont see anyone that would have beaten him
