Joe Louis vs Evander Holyfield:

Prime and peak are two different animals.

 

When most people are talking about a particular boxers 'Peak' or 'Prime' they generally mean the same thing, that the fighter was at his very best and in the very best condition. Tyson certainly wasn't at his peak when he fought douglas, he was in pretty bad shape. Also, Tyson wasn't in his prime when he fought Holyfield he was almost 10 years past it.

Conversely, Louis had not yet reached the peak of his powers when he fought Schmeling, as his defensive abilities had yet to be refined.

 

I would also add that his punches became a lot more compact in his later fights.

 

Talking of the Holyfield-Douglas fight, all credit to Holyfield for doing what he had to do, but Buster was woefully out of shape.
Ferdie Pacheco commented that you could see his breasts jiggling, and Bert Sugar, writing an article on the fight later, stated tha Buster looked like he had spent 6 months on a dessert island, not a desert island.
It was later rumoured that Douglas had been ordering pizza from the sauna.

In any event, Douglas' showing against Holyfield was pathetic, and it was a far cry from his Tokyo effort. Even the knockdown caused controversy, as many (including referee Mills Lane) maintained that Buster could have gotten up.
Mills Lane said that you were either born with a "good ticker" or not, basically insinuating that Douglas was lacking heart.

 

well then,cuddos to holyfield for ko'ng a briefly satisfied champion.douglas obviously took full advantage of the perks that go along of being a champ.i did see a picture of him about 1yr ago and that is what id call letting myself go.100 pds+ hvr.like night and day.

 

Obviously it's a matter of definition of the word.

I will add though, that Tyson was seen as invincible going into both the Douglas and the Holyfield fight. You can say all you want that you saw it coming but at the time barely anyone did.

Same for Louis when he was up against Schmeling for the first time or Lennox fighting McCall for the first time. I think they were in their primes. A fighter past his prime looks slow, lethargic and can't get his punches off. Tyson looked as sharp as he ever was in his fight against Bruno right before Holyfield.

 

Yes you are quite right Tyson was seen as the overwhelming favourite in both fights (Douglas & Holyfield) and at the time I certainly didn't see those frankly shocking upsets coming. However, we now have the advantage of hindsight and can analyse what went wrong. Most people now accept that Tyson had been on the slippery slope after the Spinks fight. Even though I thought Tyson would beat Douglas, I distinctly remember being shocked during the Bruno fight. I felt Tyson was not at his best and even looked vulnerable at one point when Bruno was able to stagger him.

Tyson looked amazing in his 2nd fight with Bruno, I vividly remember watching the fight at the time and thinking Mike was back to his best. But then you look back and realise, what sort of challenge did Bruno put up? He was pretty pathetic and passive from the opening bell. Tyson looked good, but put a heavy bag in front of Mike now and I bet he'd still show you a glimpse of years gone by. Bruno was just a heavy bag. We couldn't really assess Tyson's abilities in that fight, there was no way of knowing that his timing wasn't the same. Also, watch the 2nd Bruno fight now and you'll notice his hands aren't quite as fast as '88 Tyson. Despite the fact that physically he looked outstanding (maybe too much muscle) and the finish was electrifying, he still wasn't quite Iron Mike. Something was missing, namely some speed, timing and the erosion of his defence, we never got to see that because Tyson didn't have to defend anything as Bruno was **** scared of him and just clammed up.

The notion that Holyfield (and Douglas before him) exposed Tyson as nothing more than a limited bully that crumbles when he doesn't get his own way is a myth. Tyson after the Spinks fight was never anywhere near to being at his best. I don't like Tyson as a person, I hate the majority of his fans who justify and support him no matter what his actions, but at the same time there are a lot of Tyson bashers out there who don't recognise how truly great he once was and that he was only at that level for a relatively short time. Judge the man how you will, but judge & compare the boxer only at his absolute best.

 

I dont know about the astrology of it.

But, yes, I agree, Buster wasn't in the same condition/state of mind.

I suppose you mean "compare" as in "equate" ?
If so, I agree. The Douglas who defended the title was not the equal of the Douglas who won it.

:good

 

Crikey, we agreed here. Great effort by Holyfield regardless, he can't go make sure Buster's ready to roll. "Come on Buster ya lardass, pick it up, we got a fight in 2 weeks!"

 

I like Joe Louis by a stop in this fight ,Joe went to the body and head pretty good and had speed of combo and power shots at that. I think the fight would start out at a decent pace but Joe's acurate punching take it toll on Evander and Joe starts to land more frequently going into the 9th round and I like Joe by a stop or clear UD over 15

 

I think Joe wins this one......

 

I see this fight going a similar way to the Bowe Holyfield series where Louis takes the place of Bowe. It will go the distance but both fighters will go through some shaky moments. Somebody made the comment that they thought Holyfield did not punch hard enough to threaten Louis's chin. I disagree. If Holyfield can put Bowe into la la land with a single left hook and also floor (albeit with a body punch) someone as tough as Ray Mercer he's a threat to Joe Louis. Louis of course is a tremendous combination puncher and I expect him to have Holyfield hurt throughout the fight. Holyfield's heart and chin will keep him in there but on the wrong end of a decision. This fight though could go either way but I'm picking Louis - in a rubber match series Holyfield definitely can beat Louis though.

Louis MD15 Holyfield in a close fight.

 

Louis ranks far above Holyfield due to his greater accomplishments but i is certainly concievable that he could lose head to head. Athletes from more recent eras seem to have the advantage in physical ability.

 

Douglas was a known quitter which is why nobody gave him a chance verses Tyson and he reverted back to type when he faced Holyfield. Despite being hurt, he did take a dive though, he knew he hadn't prepared and rather than take a sustained beating he lay down. I don't think he could ever have defeated Holyfield regardless and he probably knew that and it didn't matter as he'd had his moment of glory in knocking out Tyson.

 

I can't even remember that fight apart from the knockdown punch in the third. Did Douglas at least put in the effort in the first 2 rounds or land any significant punches in them?