Joe Louis vs. Evander

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by KuRuPT, Jan 10, 2013.


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  1. FlyingFrenchman

    FlyingFrenchman Active Member Full Member

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    Conn was a SMW and not a big puncher even at LHW.

    Tony Galento was a sack of **** but he dropped Louis.

    Carnera and Buddy Baer had very little boxing skill. Carnera was big but not a big puncher. Baer dropped Louis despite his lack of skill. Baer beat very few good fighters unless you consider Abe Simon good (another big HW who sucked). Baer also beat Lee Savold W8 and Nathan Mann KO7 (both under 190 Lbs.) He beat Galento as well ,TKO7, when Galento quit due an injured hand.

    Holyfield would have been able to rip thru most of the 30's and 40's Heavyweights like a hot knife thru butter. At 6'2 1/2", a 77 1/2" reach, and a rock solid 210-215 Lbs... he'd be a monster. Excellent skill, stamina, strength, speed, and durability. His power was also very good.

    His power is getting underrated IMO. He fought big guys that could take a pounding like Foreman, Holmes, and Bowe. In almost 200 pro bouts combined, these 3 guys were only stopped twice. Bowe was never stopped but Holyfield had him down and almost out in their 3rd fight.

    Bowe had great durability- Holyfield dropped him.

    Mercer had great durability- Holyfield dropped him.

    Tyson had great durability- Holyfield dropped him and eventually stopped him.

    Moorer was never seen as a very durable HW but his chin probably would not have been an issue in Louis' era... unless perhaps he was fighting Louis. Holyfield dropped him 6 times in their 2 fights and stopped him in the rematch.

    Holyfield beat Hall of Famer Qawi in just his 12th pro fight. In their rematch Holyfield stopped him in 4. Say what you will but Qawi was only stopped by Holyfield and a 235 Lb. in shape George Foreman (LKOby7). Qawi lost a close 15 round fight to Hall of Famer Michael Spinks who would have been a top HW and considered a big puncher in Louis' era. Spinks didn't hurt Qawi but Spinks would have hurt a lot of 30's and 40's Heavyweights. Spinks was 209 solid Lbs. vs Cooney, 6'2" with a 76" reach... he would not be considered a small HW back in the day. He was a great fighter and only ever stopped once in his career (his only loss and his last fight).

    Dokes was a very good fighter and a big HW at 6'3" with a 79" reach and 225 Lbs. He was quick and had good power. Holyfield stopped him in 10.

    Stewart was a big, strong, and hard punching HW. 6'3" with a 79" reach and 215-225 solid Lbs. Holyfield stopped him in 8 rounds in their first fight after having the flu during training camp. He outboxed him over 12 in the rematch (a tune-up for the Bowe rematch).
     
    FlyingFrenchman, Jan 13, 2013
    FlyingFrenchman, Jan 13, 2013
    #61
  2. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

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    He got two out of two.:lol:
     
    cuchulain, Jan 14, 2013
    cuchulain, Jan 14, 2013
    #62
  3. Absolutely!

    Absolutely! Fabulous, darling! Full Member

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    Very good breakdown. Evander could more than hold his own against legit heavies of a very deep and talent-rich era and consistently showed the ability to take shots off huge punchers without wilting. Was also extremely overlooked in the power department like you said. Couple that with blistering fast hands, an awkward in out style and endless reserves of heart and I don't see what particular aces Louis has in this fight.
     
    Absolutely!, Jan 14, 2013
    Absolutely!, Jan 14, 2013
    #63
  4. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    You're right, he wasn't a big puncher at LHW. Now look at his record at HW. He stopped Lyons, O'Dowd, Knox, Barlund, Hassett, Hughes, Dorazio and Pastor at HW. His KO% is superior at HW than it is over the lighter weights. Like Langford before him, he found stopping HW's easier than middleweights. As he got larger he added more pep and found that hitting those bigger opponents was easier for him.

    Most instructive is his stoppage of Pastor. Pastor was almost unknockoutable, and only Louis was able to pull the trick, apart from Conn. Pastor survived a who's who of punchers including guys like Franklin and Thompson, but Conn was able to stop him with punches.

    He hit harder as he moved up. Not a secret.

    That "sack of ****" was a leading contender and noted puncher. He wasn't great of course, but his KD of Louis was basically a flash.

    The fact remains that Louis was only stopped twice, both were outside of his prime and came at the hands of excellent punchers who had to thrash him to get him out of there. The first one, versus Schmeling, was as brutal a KO as you will see. Cox counted 80 right hands that it took to put him down and out.

    I'd say Baer beat as many good fighters as Douglas. That's arguable, and you would definitely argue it based upon your take on the Louis era, but that isn't the key point. The key point is that Tyson got thrashed by his big guy that hadn't beaten many good fighters whilst Louis utterly destroyed his in a round.

    The point is, when you are fighting a man as big as Baer, he can hurt you with a punch. Holyfield could hurt Louis, no doubt. What does that spell though? Louis had an offensive fire-fighting style. He got hurt loads of times. Outside of two occasions he recovered quickly and usually brought devastating offence to bare.

    I think so too. But Holyfield, like Louis, was a great fighter - he also had the indomitable spirit and size to excell in the era. But so what? I'd pick most great fighters to beat the opposition of most great fighters. That is what makes a great fighter, surely?
     
    McGrain, Jan 14, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 14, 2013
    #64
  5. FlyingFrenchman

    FlyingFrenchman Active Member Full Member

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    I agree with some of this. However...

    I think that Holyfield would have done as well or even better vs. the fighters Louis faced (Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Braddock, Conn, Walcott, etc.).

    I don't know that Louis would have done as well as Holyfield did vs. the fighters Holyfield faced (Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson, Lewis, Rahman, etc.).

    As for Douglas? A prime Douglas is 6'4" with an 83" reach and about 230-235 Lbs. He is quick with a good jab and power. He is also a very good boxer. Douglas beat Mike Tyson down and stopped him in the 10th round in one of the best wins in the history of the sport. It was the biggest upset in boxing, Douglas was a 42-1 underdog. Douglas also beat Tex Cobb W10, Greg Page W10, Wimpy Halstead KO9, Trevor Berbick W10, and Oliver McCall W10. In a loss to Tony Tucker for the vacant IBF HW Title, Douglas was ahead after 9 rounds but ran out of gas and was stopped in the 10th. This is better than Buddy Baer's career. It's even better than Max Baer's career.
     
    FlyingFrenchman, Jan 14, 2013
    FlyingFrenchman, Jan 14, 2013
    #65
  6. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Louis in 7 or 8 rounds.
     
    ripcity, Jan 14, 2013
    ripcity, Jan 14, 2013
    #66
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Between Douglas and Lewis, Holyfield lost five fights (if you allow the draw with Lewis). I feel confident Louis could match that at least.

    Reading this, you make him sound a little like Riddick Bowe. We both know he is nothing like in that class.

    Well I could say similar things about Baer (you would disagree with them) and it wouldn't change the fact that his losses were his losses. Douglas's record is as deeply uninspiring as Buddy Baer's.

    Certainly your objections to this big fighter are not the same as the ones that dogged him in his own era, which were that he lacked the natural fighting attitude rather than that he lacked skill etc.

    But even if the papers of the day and myself are wrong and you are right, that doesn't change the fact that Louis utterly destroyed Baer and Tyson was utterly destroyed by Douglas.

    How many classes have to be between Douglas and Baer for this point to mean anything other than that in their primes, Louis was the greater force?

    I assure, that had Baer beaten Louis when they met, it would have been regarded as one of the biggest wins in the history of the sport. Douglas, likely the greater shot. Rertrospectively however...

    When you let in this level of opponent, you naturally allow Baer's list of vanquished foes to become longer too.


    In mythical "best for best" world i'd pick Douglas to beat Baer. That's based upon ONE Douglas performance. In the real world, a trilogy would have been shorn between them.
     
    McGrain, Jan 14, 2013
    McGrain, Jan 14, 2013
    #67
  8. cuchulain

    cuchulain Loyal Member Full Member

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    Both Larry and George were over 42 when they faced Evander, who was 29 and 28 respectively. IMO, that's the main reason he holds wins over this pair.

    I would pick Louis over both of the versions Holyfield faced.


    Bowe ? An MD (in a bizzare event-Miller time), against a clear UD and a stoppage.

    Again, IMO, Louis would do as well or better.

    Lewis ? Two losses in most folks' books.

    I think Louis would have serious difficulty with Lewis, but I don't see him doing any worse than Evander here.

    I would have Louis over both Moorer and Rahman.

    Tyson was a good win, but it was post-prison Tyson who had lost much of his fire.

    So all in all, I don't see Louis doing any worse than Holy (and probably better) against the fighters you mentioned.
     
    cuchulain, Jan 15, 2013
    cuchulain, Jan 15, 2013
    #68
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