Joe Louis vs Jack Johnson

Johnsons mobility is the difference, Louis had issues with mobile fighters.

 

for some reason, i've never considered this matchup. louis ends up destroying johnson imo. horrible style matchup for johnson.

 

Despite Blackburn's belief that Jack would have won (and his opinion should be highly valued) I don't see Johnson's skills outweighing Joe's. He wasn't a mover so that wouldn't have been a factor (Walcott was faster with his feet) and while his blocking and parrying were among the best ever they weren't played out against a fast combination puncher like Joe. Joe's hand speed was superior as was his punching power with both hands and repertoire of offensive weapons. Endurance was equal and no one had a better corner then Joe. Chin? Was Jack's clearly better or was it that as he matured he got tagged less then when ko'd early on. Where Jack might win is with his mind and adaptability, two areas Joe couldn't match him in.

 

I don't know who would have won, but I think Johnson's chances would be better if the fighters had to work their way out of clinches, as opposed to the referee quickly intervening and ordering a clean break. To survive Johnson needs to keep Louis either far off or else get in very tight; spending time at middle range would be Russian roulette.

 

Outside the ring Louis wins hands down. Jack Johnson had a small vision. He wanted to break the colour bar. Joe Louis had a big vision. He wanted to eradicate the colour bar. Ironic given that Johnson was a genius, and Louis was a simple man.

 

A genius yet,,,,I've read from those in Joe's time that he knew when he was being set up for racial shots, those with the fried chicken, etc., and he tried to avoid them, and that he was well schooled in keeping his peace for the sake of his public image unlike Johnson, but I have not read by any of his contemporizes that Joe had an ideal of eradicating the color bar. He was a fighter dedicated to his craft and brought along very well and he kept his private life far more so then Jack did.

 

Two of my favourite fighters, despite being polar opposites as personalities.
I voted for Louis on points because I think he might be too active for Jack. As others have mentioned, though, Johnson's mental and physical strength could be a factor.

I find it quite hard to really judge Johnson, to be honest. Some of the film of him is poor quality and in some fights he looks less than impressive; he finds a way to win rather easily, though! Did he just do "enough" like Ali was prone to do years later? I know Nat Fleischer really rated Johnson, and he saw him and later greats fight.

I'd be interested in the opinions of some of the older fight fans on this, because if you are saying Louis doesn't destroy Johnson, that gives Jack an even chance against many later champs! Good thread, interesting match up.

 

Jack Johnson wanted to break the color bar? No he wanted to run to white females just like most black athletes do. Self hate.

As boxers neither had great chins. Jack Johnson was knocked out cold by a 170 pound fighter in 3 rounds. I couldn't imagine that happening to Louis. Louis did throw punches in combos was naturally bigger, most skilled and a better fight.

Louis would absolutely destroy Jack Johnson in a few rounds.

 

This is the best (if brief) footage of Johnson I've ever seen here - correct speed and fluidity etc and crystal clear and close to ringside too - it's from about the 3:54 mark if you wanna jump ahead to it by the way

[YT]http://youtu.be/7IKom2MQS4o[/YT]

Will get back to this one with my break down on how I think this one goes in a bit though

 

Is there any way to get rid of the trolls that are destroying these threads?

 

All we can do is ignore them right now until the moderators pull their fingers out and get rid of them - sure if we ignore them they will go away soon enough - to be fair they're only doing it for the attention that their mommas never gave them

 

My biggest question regarding Johnson isn't about his greatness or ability etc..I believe the man was great. I always wondered how he would do against a dangerous puncher who punched in combinations behind a potent fast jab ala Louis. The footage we have of Johnson doesn't really answer that because his opponents didn't fight that way. Most of what I see is some circling, shifting, staring at the other guy and then lunging in with a single shot followed by extended clinching. That's not a rap on the the style of the day since the it was a different era with a different ruleset, but I wonder if someone like Johnson who was a master of that style could beat a fighter of Louis' style...or Ali's or Holmes' for that matter. Men who didn't throw just one or maybe two shots at a time but would lead with a double jab then follow with a sharp right/left hook/uppercut etc. Johnson could certainly block a single shot from anyone. but what about a hard fast combination behind a snapping jab? men like Willard, Jeffries, Ketchel and Flynn simply didn't provide the answers.

 

Back on subject, interestingly I think there were similarities between Max Schmeling's style and that of Jack Johnson.
Max also fought with all his weight over his back foot always leaning back say negating the jab or drawing lunging shots to counter - Jack Johnson used a similar style - Max's a more exaggerated method but it did make Louis think too much instead of just fighting it always enabled Max to counter with that right hand with out needing to draw back to throw it.
And his lead foot was always be way out front close to his man so in range enough to land his own just by shifting his weight forward to the font foot - essentially he was still always in range but curiously at an awkward range in terms of his upper body and head.
He also likeJohnson fought with his left hand low and extended forward slightly as a range judger - although curiously he actually threw relatively few actual jabs with it and also similar to Johnson he also move sparingly.

Now if you imagine a slightly taller max with better long left when he used it and also a very good upper cut for when Louis went low and far FAR stronger than Max?

Jack Johnson himself said that Joe Louis was a "programmed fighter", often deriding Louis' stance and what he viewed as poor balance - this and the way Johnson liked to draw people into his punches gets me thinking a bit because I've seen Louis caught coming onto punches before by Galento and Braddock off the top of my head not to mention Against Schmeling too and Louis did seem to have an unusual amount of these flash knockdowns due to what did seem to be off balanceness more often than not I think Johnson being so shifty could draw Louis into mistakes.
Johnson I read somewhere thought Louis to be "not very bright" and Johnson lived on his intellect and wits in the ring whereas Louis struck me as more of a well drilled fighter who followed his trainers orders in textbook fashion - Johnson could very well out smart Louis in the moment? Jess Willard I read thought Johnson could've handled Billy Conn and Joe Louis on the same night - it could all just be sour grapes on Johnsons part but in what sounded like an honest quote Johnson once said "everybody thinks I'm jealous of Joe Louis, but it ain't so. Louis to me is the hardest hitter that ever fought but I still think his stance is all wrong?"

Johnson even with the handcuffs on made everyone look stupid and just never seemed to be in a rush to do anything - it is my opinion that without the handcuffs he would've ko'd Burns, Ketchel, Jeffries etc in a round or two - just look at how quickly he did obliterate them when he decided enough was enough? He literally spent 90% of his fights smiling his head off and playing with guys effectively with one hand tied behind his back anyway - and in common with Jack Dempsey the first filmed fight we have of him is IMO unfortunately the last time he was anything close to his best anyway.

I think people also doubt Johnson's punching in comparison with Louis' but if anyone doubts it I would say check out the uppercut with with he lifted The near 230lb Jeffries over the middle rope with with ease and check out the shot he near on killed Ketchel with and look at the venom with which he finished Burns and Jeffries with and Johnson was fast too - there's a lot more to this fight - its an interesting one - it's a simplistic thought I know but a prime Johnson would be far and away the best fighter Joe Louis ever beat and also one who is stylistically all wrong for him too?

 

I have quoted the Blackburn interview in several threads. He does not pick Johnson over Louis, something more of the opposite in fact