Joe Louis vs. Jersey Joe Walcott I: Was it a robbery or just a close fight?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Asterion, Feb 9, 2013.


  1. Asterion

    Asterion Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Was it a gift decision for Louis? Was it as bad as Ali-Norton III or Holyfield-Lewis I?

    Was it just a close fight like Holmes-Norton?

    Explain please. :smoke
     
  2. Longhhorn71

    Longhhorn71 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Louis supposedly told Walcott that Joe had won.

    Plus, Louis quickly left the ring afterward.
     
  3. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    The decision for this fight was by far and away the most controversial of The Bomber’s career and to this day the word used to describe it is “robbery.” For as long as we are discussing the fight, I have decided to take a brief look of my own at this now seemingly established fact.

    The recent Manny Pacquiao-Timothy Bradley fight will be, for many, the benchmark robbery of their youth. This is a result so seemingly without explanation that of the one-hundred and twenty-five media sources I have seen produce a scorecard (including several from the guys at boxing.com) we have one-hundred and twenty-one scoring in favor of Pacquiao, three scoring in favor of Bradley, and one scoring the fight a draw. That is a ratio of around about 1:30 against those seeing the fight any other way than a win for Pacquiao.

    The Pittsburgh Press conducted a ringside poll of writers at the venue the night Louis decisioned Walcott and whilst the majority, twenty-four, had Jersey Joe the winner, some sixteen had it for Louis. This is a ratio of 2:3 against.

    One media source reports a Bradley win for every thirty polled.

    Two media sources report a Louis win for every five polled.

    The point is not that Pacquiao was robbed and so Louis was not, the point is that Thomas Hauser, Brian Kenny and the other forlorn souls who did not see a win for Pacquiao can be dismissed as statistical anomalies—they either made mistakes or sat in a corner of the stadium that would always give birth to such a strange score. In the case of Louis, he is backed by sixteen boxing men who know the fight game. If we include the judges amongst those polled, the difference between those who see it for Louis and those who see it for Walcott starts to look more negligible.

    The widest media scorecard I have been able to source for Louis-Walcott was the AP card which had it 9-5-1 for Walcott. I was unable to source more than one ringside card that had Walcott winning any more than eight rounds. Those who stood in judgment over Louis in a surprisingly rabid press that following week typically did so based on a scorecard provided for them by a ringside reporter that had Walcott winning only six, seven or eight rounds. This is exactly what almost every single ringsider has Louis scoring.

    But most interesting to me were the reports made by the two sources which, rightly or wrongly, hold the most weight in my mind when it comes to deducing the reality where close, un-filmed fights are concerned. The New York Times described Louis as having been “out-thought” and “generally made to look foolish,” but the newspaper also scored the fight for the champion because he had “made all the fighting, did most of the leading and, his two knockdowns notwithstanding, landed a greater number of blows.”

    Nat Flesicher, scoring for The Ring, also saw it for Louis.

    Louis, unquestionably the puncher in the fight, landed more punches according to the Times. Whilst the newspaper men ringside tended to believe that Walcott had won, there were many who felt that the exact opposite was the case, including the men who mattered. Referee Ruby Goldstein scored it 7-6-2 for Walcott, judge Marty Monroe had it 9-6 to Louis and judge Frank Forbes had it 8-6-1 for the champion.

    The highlights we have available to us seem inconclusive with neither fighter really emerging as clearly the superior of the other. In the rounds I have used to describe the Joe Louis defense, one, two and four can be scored for Walcott and three, nine, fourteen and fifteen for Louis.

    But even if we had the entire fight, all we would have is a modern eye trying to interpret a fight set in 1947 with their respect for the title, their heightened appreciation of aggression and accented disdain for the retreat.

    Louis was the aggressor, the puncher, the champion, and according to at least one reputable source the busier man. More than that, there were no ringside scorecards that mimicked the degree of outrage expressed by the press.

    Over the years I’ve come to suspect—just to suspect—that the decision was a good one.

    I feel with certainty that this was no robbery. Walcott may have deserved the nod, he may not have but either way it was close. Why, then, the controversy? It is a fact that the crowd booed Louis from the ring. This has lent credence to what has become a truth by repetition. Perhaps, like Louis himself, they were disgusted with the champion’s performance (disgust, according to Joe, that caused him to attempt to leave the ring before the verdict was even read). More likely, they had seen Louis bamboozled by an opponent that had seemed one step ahead of him at all times. But fights are not and were not scored upon aesthetics. If Louis was out-landing Walcott and enough of those punches carried enough vim to impress two of the three judges, Joe’s job was done.

    Finally, the fight continued to garner attention in the press because the method for scoring boxing itself was on trial. Whilst Walcott had been awarded points for his two knockdowns in rounds one and four on the supplementary system, they had in reality only gained him two rounds on the cards and whilst judge Forbes actually awarded Louis more rounds he awarded Walcott more points. When there seemed even a hint of a chance that the decision could be overturned on a technicality (it was claimed that Forbes should have reversed his decision based upon general impressions, permitted in a case where a judge awards more points but fewer rounds to a given fighter) the controversy continued to burn.

    And it would burn until Louis doused it with an eleventh round knockout of Walcott some six months later. But I think he deserved his win of December 1947, too, or at least I don’t consider that he was firmly beaten as the legend says. It was a close fight—so close that perhaps even a handful of punches could have turned it.
     
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  4. Theron

    Theron Boxing Addict banned

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    I watch this fight all the time one of my favorites and every time i see it Walcott is the victor.I think he just beat Louis that night
     
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    How many rounds do you have?
     
  6. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Excellent post. It should also be noted that sometimes when the underdog does better than expected, some people get carried away by their expectations being upturned and give more credit than deserved. And **** the crowd. People have booed Pernell Whitaker and Santa claus. It happens.
     
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  7. energie

    energie Boxing Addict Full Member

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    hard to say because therirs only hilites of every rd on film
     
  8. Rex Tickard

    Rex Tickard Active Member Full Member

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    I've only seen highlights of every round, but the action that's shown is generally close and indecisive IMO (outside of the two KDs of course). Neither fighter was particularly active or effective IMO.

    Walcott's performance in the highlights was reminiscent of Whitaker's against DeLaHoya IMO - he looked flashy and made his opponent look foolish at times, but did he do enough effective actual fighting to deserve the win? Hard to say IMO, especially without the complete fight.
     
  9. LittleRed

    LittleRed Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Coined just now? Or developed during your thesis for social psychology.
     
  10. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    Absolutely not. At least not comparable to your latter example which is more inexplicable than your first one. It was a close fight. 2/3 of the press row scored it for Walcott and 2/3 of the judges had it for Louis.
     
  11. PetethePrince

    PetethePrince Slick & Redheaded Full Member

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    So aggression was more heralded in the late 40's than it is today? Is this a common observation or a mere perception? I ask because it seems aggression has never dwindled in importance in the eyes of a scorer. I know it was big then as well. I mean, I am saying it was always more seemingly rewarded. Maybe I misinterpreted that sentence.
     
  12. The Funny Man 7

    The Funny Man 7 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Littlered makes an excellent point about underdogs benefiting in public perception when they excede expectations as Walcott certainly did in flooring Louis twice.

    I haven't watched the fight though, so I can't vouch for whether that applies in this case.
     
  13. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    I just consider it a draw. Not enough footage for me to judge myself but enough controversy for me to give it an asterix.
     
  14. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    It is certainly possible to argue that Louis should have got the decision.
     
  15. lufcrazy

    lufcrazy requiescat in pace Full Member

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    As a rule, if there is a controversial enough fight with enough reports disputing the decision I just consider it a draw, unless I can watch it myself.

    Flowers - Greb
    Flowers - Walker
    Gibbons - Bartfield
    Louis - Walcott

    And so on and so forth. I am a bit more inclined to consider it a draw it if it was a nws fight because those results always change depending on how many decisions have been submitted (Greb - Flowers 1 is now a draw on there). With official fights I am a bit stricter (poll of ringside reporters, API, UP, crowd reaction, recognition of champ etc) but by and large this is how I view classic controversial fights.

    The winner clearly did enough to get the official decision on the night and without seeing it myself I can't take that away from him. But the loser clearly did enough to cause such controversy and without seeing it myself I can't take that away neither.

    So I just sit on the fence and consider it a draw that way history doesn't really change and I'm reminded of the controversy when looking through resume's past and present.