Joe Louis vs Mike Tyson

I'd love to see the poll results from people who actually saw both fighters fight. That would be very interesting to me. :hat

 

I'm noticing a pattern with the people that are generally pro-classic/old fighter to try and discredit the opposing opinions, at least in this thread. It's a bit unfortunate.

 

I just don't understand. Where is all this talk about Louis not being able to walk through a punch?

He took a handful of Baers shots right before knocking max down later in the fight.


People say Louis can't take a punch because he got floored by 'fat' tony galento, mauriello, and braddock. All of those punches were excellent punches. Even is Tyson were to take those punches a little better than Louis, it is by no means an indication that Tyson would win between the two. Thats giving you the benefit of the doubt that Tyson would take those shots, when maybe he couldn't. What do we think about when Ali gets knocked down? He gets right back up, correct? Everyone only has the image of Louis getting up from the Marciano knockdown, but nobody ever mentions Louis ability to bounce right back up after getting floored.
Oh and before I forget, Galento was no chump. He was a very powerful hitter. I know he looks funny, but he was very effective.

Joe was never seriously hurt from a knockdown for the most part of his career. He would bounce right back up, like the canvas was a trampoline.

The only loss Louis faced in the healthy part of his career was from a guy who took the majority of the fight to do the job.


Speaking of Schmeling:
He said the shot to the back that he took from Joe, which was ilegal, but not Joes fault, broke two bones in his back. He said he felt the pain almost everyday after the fight took place. He was placed in the hospital and had to stay there over th course of 10 days. He said THE punch was the one that forced Schmeling to go to the ropes. Schmeling said he was completely paralyzed. He could not do anything but see. He said finally Louis was able to get Max to the ground with such a hard blow to the chin, Schmeling said he lost his sense of logic. He did not want or mean to get up, but for some reason his body kept getting up. He said after the first knockdown, he wanted no more, but his senses were so deranged by Louis power that he got up.


I want to also add one more thing:

Joe wasn't slow or flat footed. He was just constantly awaiting the opponents punch. Every second he was ready. And using his style, you cannot move around very freely when constantly anticipating a counter.

Watch for yourself

1:15-1:19
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ovh8VkTxYI&feature=related[/ame]

Im not saying Louis would do those maneuvers against Tyson or anything like that. I just want the naysayers to see that Louis could move, if thats what he chose to do.

 

Well, if you think having seen both fighters fight somehow is a discredit to you, let's talk about when they met up with other very high class opponents on their records. I'm sure you would agree that both Louis and Tyson fit that category. Anyone can look at records, yes?

Joe Louis
Max Schmeling Lost KB12, Won KO01 (1-1)
Jack Sharkey Won KO03 (2-1)
Primo Carnera Won KO06 (3-1)
Max Baer Won KO04 (4-1)
James Braddock Won KO08 (5-1)
Jimmy Bivins Won WU10 (6-1)
Ezzard Charles Lost LU15 (6-2)
Joe Walcott Won WS15, KO11 (8-2)
Rocky Marciano Lost KB08 (8-3)

Joe Louis against very high class opposition: won 8, lost 3, stops: 6, stopped by: 2

Mike Tyson
Larry Holmes Won KO04 (1-0)
Michael Spinks Won KO01 (2-0)
Buster Douglas Lost KB10 (2-1)
Evander Holyfield Lost KB11, Lost DQ03 (2-3)
Lennox Lewis Lost KB08 (2-4)

Mike Tyson against very high class opposition: won 2, lost 4, stops: 2, stopped by: 4

If I just looked at their records, and had never seen either man fight, I would be thinking about expecting a Joe Louis victory in a head to head meeting. No discrediting anyone there.

 

It is possible that we might have some overlap of interests in this area.

Anyway, if you PM me I will sort you out with a facebook link.

 

Who say the head clash was such an issue ?
I just mentioned it as an aside. No need to get upset about it.

Where have you proved that Tyson had more one-punch KOs ?
(You admit yourself you dont even know how many Louis had !)

You've got me all wrong, I'm not even interested in convincing you of Louis being capable of beating Tyson, so I wasn't reaching for anything.

The Williams fight was a TKO, not a one-punch KO, (and some people even disputed the ref's call - though I thought it was fair), so it simply doesn't belong on the list. That was my initial point, and the headbutt was an aside.

I've never disputed the power of the punch, and have always recognized it as one of Tyson's best. A great left hook. I dont degrade the punch, but that's not a one-punch KO.

 

I never made any claims about how damaging it was.

You and Petetheprince are getting very sensitive about mere mention of it as a "butt" or "head clash".

I just mentioned it as an aside, wasn't making any big point out of it, and even if I had some sort of nasty anti-Tyson agenda (which I absolutely have not) I wouldn't need to make it a major factor, since the Williams fight I dont even consider a one-punch KO.

I amused by some of the people on this thread (not you, I might add) who seem to think the whole discussion here has any actual bearing on the truth value of whether Tyson beats Louis or vice versa. The whole idea is pure pie in the sky hypothetical fantasy-land nonsense, and ought to be fun.

My thing all along has been to say I'd put my money on Louis (in la-la-land) but I respect the other option absolutely. What I didn't like was all this talk of "mismatch", "**** footwork", "**** this, **** that" and the bull**** about Louis being an easy mark or a fargile fighter who (allegedly) is out-gunned and overmatched in every department. That I thought was horse****.
Louis wasn't perfect, but nor was Tyson.

I have better things to do that "reach" for arguments to convince others of how some hypothetical fantasyland match would turn out in some abstract plane somewhere (as PeteThePrince accused me of).

Anyway, Tyson's won the poll hands down, with 52 + votes and 26 or more people agree that Louis would be favoured. If that matters.

And the discussion has been fun for the most part, but a bit tedious in having to explain myself all the time and defend myself from accusations of having an anti-Tyson bias.
I guess I bring it on myself to some extent, but others here are quick to put words in my mouth and jump to conclusions.
Another day in the office at ESB classic.

 

Your Louis video is cool.

Easy. The film shows Tyson walks through the better punch, something decisive in a firefight such as this.

I'm glad you mentioned this. You see Louis circling against Carnera? He would do this against a much taller, larger foe; see also the two Baers and Simon.

But against a shorter swarmer such as Galento or Godoy, he would get on the train track; that is, he would employ his patented back-shuffle countering tactic. This would be his strategy against 5'10+" Tyson, and it would make for a stupendous clash.

Louis, on the track, is going to let Mike lead; Mike will oblige and come for Louis, as was his style. Split seconds will count here:

a) Any probing Louis left will be countered with a surging left hook;

b) Louis will seek an opening from the onrushing Tyson; but Tyson comes in behind a jab and moving his head, so Louis will not readily find his chance.

c) Letting Mike Tyson lead while moving back simply gives him momentum. And let's forget any more talk of walking through punches and flash knockdowns. The film shows Louis can be rattled with one punch, so it is not at all unreasonable to see Mike overwhelming Louis in an early barrage. Why not? Just because he's Joe Louis? Again, Lou Nova said if he could floor Louis as Galento did, he would keep him there. Lou Nova! He said the obvious: Galento had a punch, but was slow as molasses. A short swarmer as well, Tyson was light years ahead of Galento in every department and would most definitely place the rattled Louis in dire straits. This, from film, not mere fantasy.

d) Men who stood in front of Tyson and fought him were overwhelmed or countered to submission. Short swarmers who applied pressure troubled Louis. From film, not mere fantasy.

e) To me the film evidence favors Tyson.

 

I never proved, but listed some examples and showed some evidence. I said that with the film we do have Tyson has more. Care to actually dispute this, or do you want me to actually specifically list out all the examples?

I consider it a 1 punch KO. It doesn't matter if the ref said he couldn't continue and ruled it a TKO. Williams barely got up due to a 1 punch shot. I'm not going to let semantics or technicalities overhaul the logic that Tyson had a 1 punch game ending punch. The whole 1 punch KO too can be examined overly literally. As if you land more than one punch before the KO punch it nullifies it. Obviously deterioration happens, though. For example, I consider the Spinks fight basically as 1 punch KO. The body shot hurt Spinks but Tyson catches him with a right-hand/uppercut type shot that leaves Spinks on the canvas to not get up. Tyson had many against non-ranked opponents.

It's by my ruling. It doesn't have to leave you knocked out cold, and the ref stopping a wobbling Williams that gets up at 9 doesn't change the fact that it was a game-ending punch. You can hold on to a technicality though.

 

It's a discredit to those that favor Tyson, yes.

We can, but I don't think this will hold much relevance. I'll explain later.

This is where the argument falls apart. What does longevity, and a proper consistent champion's mindset have to do with a prime vs prime fight. The fact that Louis was successful for longer, and defended his crown more often than anyone further proves his greatness as a fighter. But in a fantasy matchup it does little to nothing in analyzing and examining a styles matchup between two fighters. What Tyson did from post-prison against Holyfield and Lewis doesn't really pertain. Lastly, I don't like you're selection of Tyson opponents. First off he's 2-3, not 2-4. Second, what makes Douglas high class just because he pulled a rabbit out of his hate on one occasion? Ruddock should be mentioned as high class then, as Bruno should too (He was a champion at one point too). You consider the guys Louis buzz-sawed pre-title but not the guys Tyson wrecked to win the titles. A bit partial, I must say. As if Braddock would beat any fighter on that Tyson list.

 

Thanks, I appreciate it.

Like I said, I don't think Louis would emply his fast moving style against Tyson either. I just posted that there to show people he is not some heavy wind up machine that only does one thing. I too beieve he would let Tyson lead. And Tyson would have the momentum going in. And I think thats Tysons demise.


I asked what is this talk about Louis not being able to take a punch, and you responded by telling me that Tyson could take a punch better. That doesn't answer my question though.

I think Tyson would knock Louis down too, but when talking about Louis that doesn't really mean much. Louis bounces right back up. Tyson needs to take Louis the majority of the fight if he wants to beat him. No question about that.

a. I could say the same exact thing about Louis.

b. Louis will not readily find his chance? One main aspect of Louis style was based off jabbing someone, and hitting them while they ducked the jab with the power punch. Blackburn was always proud of teaching Joe how to do that properly. Whats your reasoning that Joe wouldn't be ready?

c. Joe can be rattled with one punch? Define rattled. Rattled as in not the same any more? Because thats incorrect. Joe would get knocked down, get up, and take charge in the fight right away. Knocking down a prime Joe Louis doesn;t mean squat. It's just a super awesome cool story to tell your grandchildren, but in reality it didn't matter. Louis got up faster than Ali did from knockdowns.

d. Who in Tysons career compares to Louis in terms of someone standing in front of you. We are talking about Jou Louis, one of the greatest heavyweight of all time. Tyson never faced anyone in his prime close to Louis' caliber.

Have you ever thought of the fact that we have never seen many Louis fights in the stage of his career that we rate Tyson's prime in? Theres no footage of Louis' first 12 fights. Im not saying Tysons first 12 fights were his best, but had we not seen Tysons first fights, we would be missing a lot of the sentimental images we have of Tysons ferocity.

And remember, Louis can get off a power punch faster than it takes Tyson to bob, weave, and put his entire body into a punch.

I would pay so much money to see this fight!

 

Well...if I'm not allowed to use the fact that I have seen both fighters fight, because that evidently hurts your feelings...and I'm not allowed to use their records, because they're evidently meaningless, in your opinion...then I guess the only opinion I'm allowed to have, with no evidence at all, is that Tyson and Louis will fight to a draw...as will any other two linear champs...in a fantasy matchup.

 

What he's saying is that you don't fight with records. Longevity is obviously important in judging a fighters greatness, whatever that is, but in a fantasy head to head matchup it has no bearing.

Basically, Louis's 25 title defenses mean jack **** if he can't stop an 80's Tyson from dropping him

 

Well then...if fighting records mean jack ****, in my opinion, based on seeing the two men fight, Louis was a better fighter and would beat Tyson, period. If that insults some of you younger guys, then I'm sorry, but that's what's left. I would say exactly the same thing if we were talking about Muhammad Ali and Mike Tyson, or Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson, or even Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson.

I'm not just picking Joe to win beacuse I liked him or have some sentimental feelings for him. I don't have a dog in the hunt on that basis. I liked both of them, and thoroughly enjoyed their fights! Both brought me to my feet more than once, with my heart pounding! I guess I identify more with the heavyweights, because I'm a big guy. I like watching the lower weights but I love heavyweight boxing, and I loved watching both of these guys fight!!!

 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9bUcXJXj20&feature=related[/ame]

Tyson was an expert at reading the jab. He would jab with his opponent and follow up with a left hook to the jaw. 2:00 mark.

Tyson begins to close the show on Thomas as Pinky gets "on the track", very much in Louis style, by backing up and throwing out a couple of jabs. Tyson counters through with a devastating left hook. 5:56 mark. I believe Thomas took the better single punch than Louis.

More later. And, yes, it's a fascinating match-up.