Joe Louis vs modern giants: settling tbe debate.

I understand where you're coming from and I find the 'Buddy Baer Paradox' both intriguing and useful. However, it naturally relies on Buddy being considered as somewhere near to the level of modern Super Heavyweights.

I threw my question in, using an extreme comparison, specifically to gain this kind of clarification. The better the gauge on Buddy Baer's 'level', the more useful the poser you set becomes.

 

I think if you are talking Lennox Lewis, or Riddick Bowe, yeah size will play into it. But size is an advantage, not the be all and end all. When you are talking about a gulf in class like between and ATG champion like Joe Louis and someone who was never more than a decent contender like Luis Ortiz, it's not nearly enough.

Does anyone think a prime Marvin Hagler couldn't beat Joe Smith Jr.?

 

Baer was a good fighter.

 

Not close to the level of AJ, Fury or Wilder......

 

I disagree. He was def more of a Wilder type though. Problem with AJ Fury and Wilder is they haven’t beat each other yet....hard to gauge them in that regards. One will rise to the top.

 

I don't see how Buddy Baer is a reasonable stand-in for good modern big men.

If you were to design a big man who could be beaten by a good smaller fighter, he'd probably have a lot of Buddy Baer's traits. Did extremely little jabbing, and the relatively few he did throw were mostly only half-extended and had zero snap. Mostly led with power punches that created wide openings for counters for an opponent with much faster hands. Especially since Baer often dropped his punches after throwing them and had a loose, low guard with no head movement. Didn't clinch or smother Louis when Louis was standing forehead to forehead with him and throwing hooks around his guard either.

 

I know this is a somewhat spurious debate, but what is the view on someone like Ray Mercer (6'1, 77" reach) giving a superheavy as good and skilled as Lennox Lewis everything he could handle?

Joe Louis (6'2, 76" reach) weighed a good 25-35 lbs less than Mercer but do people think the extra weight is why Mercer had success and why Louis wouldn't?

 

He's not in the same timezone pal, and them beating each other has no bearing on a fantasy fight with Joe Louis.

 

There's weight divisions for a reason, of course that extra weight counts for something.

 

Seem to be penalising a guy for being in great shape and crediting another guy for not being in great shape. I've no doubt Louis could have weighed an extra 15-20 pounds without much trouble with modern training and nutrition and still been effective. A 220 lb Louis would have given Lennox Lewis fits.

 

Louis didn't have Mercer's chin. If you've got a great chin, a decent jab and good ring smarts, you can go pretty far in the division without being some kind of genetic freak like a Lewis or WK or Wilder.

 

No, Baer looked terrible when he engaged Louis on the inside. I don't see how him getting pummeled head to head shows that he's better at infighting than anyone. And I don't buy that infighting is a "lost art"--I think it's an inferior style of fighting for big men with size advantages. Most guys today probably could stand around and fight like Buddy Baer if they had to but why would they want to? High risk and little upside.

I see that depiction of Bowe in this forum a lot but I think it's a caricature. Bowe slugged it out from time to time but for the most part, he worked off his jab and did his best work at long range. And it's all relative. Bowe's jab, sense of distance, defensive awareness, guard, and even head movement were all much better than Buddy Baer's imo.