Joe Louis vs. Ray Mercer

Lennox never fought anyone like Billy Conn.

Joe Louis could move, and side-step, and back-up, and do nimble little turns. The myth that he had feet stuck in mud is probably based on looking at his worst fights plus the fact that he purposely didn't waste energy bouncing around, chasing guys etc.
He was a flat-footed technician out of design, he wasn't a plodder.
Louis could adapt in a fight if necessary in almost every case, that's why he won all those fights.

A smart fighter should beat Mercer comfortably, as Holmes demonstrated.
Mercer may have got a little smarter himself after that one, but not much.

Louis by KO is plausible too.

 

A young Lennox Lewis fought a very slick Ossio Ocasio. Ocasio was small - slick heavyweight with good defense, good coutnering ability,and good speed. The fight went the distance. Lewis won it 80-77. A prime Lewis would have fewer issues. A prime Lewis would not lose more than a round or two vs Conn, and would likely knock him out far sooner than Louis did in either fight. Conn's in and out peeper you type of game worked vs Louis because of Louis predictability, defense, and lack of foot speed. Lewis had too much range, too much height, too much strength, and better defense for Conn to pull off the same type of stuff.

Louis was a flat-footed technician because he never had great balance, and seemed to prefer to be in a certain range to let his bombs go. I don’t think Louis was fast on his feet, and was somewhat mechanical and predictable with his feet, though he had some moves as you stated.

I agree. I also think Mercer coasted a bit too much, and could become gun shy it he's hit too hard. However one must keep Mercer off and that is not easy. Holmes was a boxing master with a long jab. I don't think Louis had the ideal range, or defensive savvy of Holmes, though I do think he can out smart Mercer a bit.

It is possible. Mercer via TKO is also possible. I like Louis via hard fought decision.

 

A prime Ocasio would have created more issues.
A novice Lewis versus an old woefully overweight Ocasio is all we have to go on.

I have no idea how Lewis-Conn would look. That's the only point I'm making.

I think Louis had good footwork, a good stance, good balance.

Louis doesn't need to "keep Mercer off", because he'd schooled Ray on the inside.

I would EXPECT Louis to win confortably on points, or by mid-to-late stoppage.

 

I think Mercer did defeat Lennox Lewis, just.

But Joe Louis is another type of fighter entirely. A much better combination puncher, sharper, faster hands, perhaps less one punch power but I do believe he has the capacity to be the more damaging fighter over the scheme of the fight.

Mercer can hurt Louis if he gets sloppy, but Louis has displayed good recuperative abilities throughout his career - He has a much better fighters heart than Lewis, displayed by the number of knockdowns he recovered from.

Joe Louis can infight, slug, and box, I think he'd stop a very tough Ray Mercer late.

 

Louis would hit him with everything but the kitchen sink and stop him before 10, too many fast, powerful shots landing on Mercer

 

Good thing too, Lewis would murder any lightheavyweight.

I never said Louis was a bad boxer.

Well, style makes fights here. Mercer put his jab to better use later. He gave Holyfield a lot of trouble as well.

I don't see anyone knocking a prime Mercer out. Just look at the shitload of punishment he took from Lewis without backing down. An offensively-peak Wladimir Klitschko hit him with a tremendous amount of power punches when he was 41 years old, yet he was only floored once and stopped on his feet in the 6th. And yes, i do believe that Wlad was as good as Louis was if we're talking about offense. A prime Mercer can take more and while his defense sucked, it was a better back in that day.

 

Louis, Liston, Ali, Foreman all had trouble with fighters who were light-heavyweights or who were small light-hitting "cruiser"-sized fighters.

He gave Holyfield a decent fight, yes.

Yes, Mercer was durable.

I dont think Wlad is as good as Joe Louis on offense.
Somebody mentioned the other day that Wlad doesn't really even use an uppercut often, that remark had some merit. I dont consider Wlad as having much inside game at all either. Louis possessed the full arsenal.

 

I think Lewis is better at using the ring and the jab from a distance, but Louis is the better inside fighter, puncher and combination hitter.

 

:roll: Nothing to do with Janitor, or any other poster. I see greatness in head to head in a lot of fighters, regardless of era. I think Robinson is as good or better than any WW that's ever laced em up, regardless of era, in a head to head sense. Louis is a different one though, as are most old school Heavys to be honest, more due to size though.

My main point for choosing Louis overall is that Mercer is just not that good, though he looked very good against Lennox. Otherwise he's not really impressed me. Louis's punching ability always impresses me, it's other things in his game that don't quite keep up.

 

When did Foreman have trouble with lightheavyweights? Peralta got knocked out once and went the 10 round distance another time, losing a decision. That's all. Liston does not even come close to Lewis' size and neither does Louis so i don't really see the argument there. And when was Ali troubled by a lightheavyweight? He took Foster out while clowning and being out of shape. Patterson was stopped twice.

It is true that he negligdes his uppercut often, but i suggest you rewatch the fight. A defenceless Mercer took an incredible beating before the referee stopped it: i don't think anyone would be able to stop him in his prime.

 

Well, the Louis-Conn ended with Louis winning with a perfect combination punching KO.

Conn boxed a darn sight better than Peralta, but the idea that Conn had schooled Joe Louis for 12 rounds is a myth. You brought up Conn as some sort of knock on Louis. The fight itself when viewed serves Louis's reputation more than it damages it, IMO.
All that matters to you is that he "had trouble with a lightheavyweight"?
Louis AND Conn look pretty damn GREAT in that fight from where I'm sitting.

If you think Foreman-Peralta looks better for big George (and I forgive him because he was green, and he was always raw anyway), then that's up to you.

I dont see your argument. Louis was "troubled by a lightheavyweight" but Louis is much smaller than Lewis, so what's that supposed to tell me ?
Lewis would be far too big for Conn ? OK, seems reasonable, and so what ?
Does that make Mercer's chances any better ?
Does that make Lewis a better heavyweight than Louis ?

Billy Conn was stopped twice !
John Henry Lewis was KO'd in 1 round.

BTW, I was refering to Doug Jones as a light-heavy who gave Ali a decent fight. Henry Cooper wasn't much bigger than a light-heavy either (in fact, in Cooper's autobiography he says he trained so hard he was down to 175 but the promoter had his weight announced at 184 to dissuade punters it was gonna be a mismatch).

OK, but if anyone was to do it you'd go with the best puncher/finishers in heavyweight history, right ?

Holyfield had a prime Mercer in distress enough to take a knee at one point, and there are better hitters and better finishers than Holyfield, eg. Joe Louis.

 

good post

 

As you said, the Peralty fight came early in George's career, his 14th fight (after tomato cans only and a journeyman in Wepner) if i remember correct. Conn came at Louis' peak.

Maybe. I wasn't talking about Mercer, i was just responding to your assertion earlier that i couldn't imagine Lewis being troubled by a lightheavyweight for so long.

True, but Patterson didn't trouble Ali much. A lot is made out of the rematch, but he was down on the cards and rightfully so, in my opinion.
On top of that, it's no secret that Ali made it a habbit of doing little and didn't mind losing the early rounds to figure his opponent out or tire him.

True, though again, the Jones (and Cooper) fight didn't come at Ali's peak.

I do agree that smaller fighters in general do better against Ali, though.

Yes, but Holyfield (nor Lewis) stopped him. On paper, Lewis has a better chance than finishing him than Holyfield, yet Holyfield had him down on a bodyshot. It is interesting to note that most fighters don't get knocked down by the best punchers they faced. Ali was down by Cooper, Banks and Frazier, not by Liston, Foreman or Shavers. Lewis was down by McCall and Rahman, not by Tua, Bruno, Klitschko, Ruddock or Morrison. Louis was not knocked down by Max Baer but by Braddock etc. Holyfield was not knocked down by Lewis, but by Cooper and Bowe.



I'm not saying that Louis has a smaller chance than Holyfield to stop Mercer, i'm just saying that just because Holyfield had him in trouble, it's no given that Louis does better.

 

Cooper weighed 188 for the 2nd fight to Ali,s 211 1/2.there is no mention in Coopers autobiography of him weighing 175,.Conn weighed 169 for the first Louis fight ,while Louis came in at 199 dried out ,conscious that Conn was smaller ,Louiis wanted to come in under 200lbs,he blamed this for his sluggish performance.