I dont think Ingo was special ,and if he had honoured the rematch with Machen I'd probably put a couple of £ on Eddie. He ko'd a fragile Patterson once in 3 goes and hit Machen with everything including the kitchen sink before he stopped him.Shallow resume, pawing jab, average chin at best and I'm not sold on his ticker either. A one trick pony with not enough meat in his sandwich.
You are entitled to believe Machen could win the rematch but that would only be a hunch wouldn’t it? That Ingo flattened both Machen and Patterson, at a time when they were the best two heavyweights in the world (whilst Sonny Liston was barely ranked in the top ten) shows what really happened. It’s not a hunch. Nobody could do better. All anyone could do is Match that. How can you surpass that? There was no more emphatic result anyone could score in two fights that year. That’s factually special. Takes some doing. It is only “not special“, if you rely on theory or hunches.
For all the BS in the thread it's blatantly obvious that both have some sort of a chance. This is an open fight. Liston would be the best Joe ever fought. Joe could be dropped and troubled by lesser fighters than Sonny. In his prime he always came back however, but again - against lesser fighters. So there's that murky ground in the middle there that Liston being better may be able to conclude him. It's certainly no given however. On the other hand excepting Ali Sonny has never faced anything like Louis. His speed and power are off the charts and he, like Liston, has quite good fundamentals particularly for a heavyweight. I'd very very minorly favor Louis. His speed, precision and countering have me ever so slightly leaning his way. He was immensely dangerous when hurt. Liston was too for that matter but i wonder if Joe might be more chance of getting in there first when the going gets critical. Liston's jab might even end up being the difference here. If he can control Joe at range and stunt his attack he'd be in good stead. He could build off that jab and really launch some good offensives. Great match.
Excellent post, if you don't mind could you play devil's advocate for Liston? I remember Janitor saying that if Liston wins, it would be because he was much better at anticipating his opponent I agree wholeheartedly.
I think it's simple. If he wins he hurts Louis and finishes him off. Having said that it's not impossible Liston gets ahead on points with that jab however both like to come forward stalking and i don't think it's going the distance. Liston can be reasonably precise with those bombs as well and both are going to get hit hard. Who emerges from that?
I'd say you and John have been the most insightful on this subject, Swag. You guys have me seeing it your way.
In that scenario I still see Louis coming up with apocalyptic combinations in the later rounds. Though I have a hard time believing Liston would get knocked out (of course it's possible), I do see Joe at least taking the decision. However, I must exclaim that I've been watching Liston a whole lot more because of Swag, and I have grown massively in my appreciation for him.
I appreciate that A LOT Rules! Being compared to John is the biggest compliment anyone has ever payed me here! And just a couple of days ago I was "one of the main reasons for this forums decline". My stock is skyrocketing!
I believe Liston's superior ability to think on his feet and durability would have him come out on top in that hypothetical situation.
Maybe but it's a fine line. If he hurt you no-one finished like Louis. His combination punching and accuracy was frightening. Louis is probably the greatest puncher ever and like Liston he slips and blocks very well. There's every chance Louis gets there first but he did wear some solid blows in various fights too. Louis went down more often but so did a guy like Holmes. They were both good at getting back up and winning - Louis more so by devastating KO. Have a look from 7.48-8.30. Baer tags Louis and unleashes but Joe doesn't take long to turn defense into a blistering explosion of straight bombs to put Baer in trouble. Love the little skip walking back to the corner too.
