Joe Louis vs Sonny Liston of 1960?

Not a chance.

 

Why not? It worked just fine against Chuvalo. Machen outmaneuvered Liston for 12 rounds, made him miss a lot of his best shots, and nailed Liston was selected flurries. I think Floyd has a good chance with that game plan. Better than slugging it with Liston, that's for sure.

 

I mean, that's why it took a long time for Liston to get beat. Williams, Folley, and Patterson all seemed to think they could outslug Liston. Machen didn't, and he lasted a close 12 rounds with Liston. Ali did it and won the title by RTD in 6.

 

Chuvalo was a slow crude mauler without a decent jab and with average power,even Bonavena outboxed him!
Machen ran away for half the fight fighting in brief bursts it wasnt even a close bout Liston lost rounds for low blows. Patterson was a come forward fighter standing pretty square on he didn't have good legs in retreat and was ineffective backing up.Nothing Floyd might do would beat Liston.
He's out jabbed at range and beaten up in close,you don't give a guy like Liston momentum.
Prime Liston beats the living crap out of Floyd and Ingo 7 days a week.

 

I can't agree with you on Chuvalo and Machen, but you're argument against Patterson is pretty convincing.

 

Who couldn't outbox Chuvalo ,even Corletti managed it!

 

agreed. Who couldn't outbox Liston? Of course, it depends on your pint of view, although Liston-Machen was close, I have always thought Machen edged it out.

 

Patterson was screwed from the get go. Liston got inside his mind and ruined him.

It's quite possible Floyd could have held up longer if he hadn't been so obviously petrified. But he had no chance.

 

How many beat Liston on points?Liston is several levels above Chuvalo as a boxer,as is nearly everyone.
The Machen fight wasnt even close.

• Referee: Whitey Domstad 119-112
• Judge: Ely Caston 118-114
• Judge: Sam Heller 118-116

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 118-115 Liston
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 115-113 Liston

 

Yeah he could have done what Frazier did against Foreman in their second fight,ie delayed the inevitable end.

 

Exactly. To me that shows just how terrified Patterson was of Liston. All he had to do was jab and hold, hold, hold. Instead he went out pretty much the same way he did in the first fight, didn't seem to even try to apply a new game plan.

 

yes and that was not because anyone was being avoided. That was because the rule back then that you had to beat a champion twice to become champion. If the champ lost he got to fight the guy who beat him before anyone else could because that was the rule. And it would have been the case for whoever became a strong contender while a series was going on that that got resolved first. Nothing deliberate was especially brought in place to make Sonny wait. These were legitimate rematches during the infamous rematch clause era. Even Sonny got his rematch when he lost the title too. He was not left out.

This had less to do with Sonny not getting a title shot than the ban and subsequent dropping from the ratings that Sonny received in 1961 for being arrested for impersonating a policeman in an effort to pick up women.

yes and on the same night Sonny was matched against the hapless and woefully inadequate blonde Albert Westphal as a double header TV appetiser for the upcoming Patterson v Liston showdown. It was already agreed to happen.

As explained The Ingo-Patterson championship series was always going to go on uninterrupted. So it is a moot point. Worthless. Unless Liston had of been a more deserving challenger than Ingo before the whole series got started it means diddly squat.

When it mattered Liston was not rated above Ingo.

December 1958

Heavyweights NBA
Floyd Patterson, Champion

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Brian London
3. Nino Valdes
4. Zora Folley
5. Willie Pastrano
6. Eddie Machen
7. Henry Cooper
8. Roy Harris
9. Mike DeJohn
10. Sonny Liston

January 1959

Heavyweights NBA
Floyd Patterson, Champion

1. Ingemar Johansson
2. Nino Valdes
3. Henry Cooper
4. Zora Folley
5. Brian London
6. Willie Pastrano
7. Eddie Machen
8. Roy Harris
9. Mike DeJohn
10. Sonny Liston

 

It works both ways. Maybe Sonny Is flattered that Floyd and Ingo has already beat the crap out of each other?

Floyd and Ingo took a lot out of each other.

 

For such a dominant fighter I find myself picking against Louis too often in fantasy matchups. It would be one thing if I wasn’t a fan, but I think highly of him. At his best, he looks great on film.

Why do I always seem to underrate him head to head?

 

Maybe repeated lies about him time and time again on this forum? It can make you doubt his h2h abilities.