Joe Louis vs Sonny Liston primes

Agreed.There are many factors in this dream-fight but intimidating Joe Louis is right off
the menu.I honestly don't think any fighter in history could have scared Joe.
Louis had nerves of steel and ice-water in his veins

 

Didn't Max Baer claim that Louis scared him?

 

LOL ! Yes he did,and Max was no coward !

 

He wasn't the only one. Ray Arcel trained a string of men to fight Louis and memorably described them wilting like tulips when they found themselves facing him across the ring.

 

I think Louis knew when Schmeling had his number and I feel like his approach changed and he wanted to be game but knew what time it was. I think he could run into a similar situation after 10-12 rounds of beating from Sonny. That's what I mean. I think getting torn up with a Sonny Liston jab, from a type of fighter they frankly didn't have in his day would be mentally exhausting and cause Joe's defense to slide just another bit down the ladder. Not calling him a "game quitter" but I think Joe knew he had some leaky defense on occasion and Sonny would find that target enough for both men to know who was the boss in there.

 

What kind of fighter was Liston that they didn't have in the 30s and 40s, in your view?

 

Size, technicality, range, physicality all put together.

People will extrapolate a guy like Louis' resume forward saying, oh, he fought a couple of huge guys so he can handle the size, and a couple of big punchers so he can handle the power, and some boxers (Conn made Louis look as Ali's appraisal of him, "shuffling Joe") so he can handle the footwork (I don't think this was ever solved). And he fought tough guys, so he can hang in there in a tough fight. But I don't think Max Baer's winging overhand rights, Two Ton's toughness, Billy Conn's boxing or Schmeling's ring IQ and gamesmanship equate to the enormity of the task that is Sonny.

I think Sonny would demolish any fighter before him. We saw an addicted, mob-tied, sometimes boxer who may have lied about his age in there. In a vacuum with those under control and a better start in life, Sonny may be one of the top 5 of all time, and without those all considered, I still think he's a top 10-15 guy.

Who in the 1940s (edit lol) was coming with a smart jab that could knock a tree down, could body attack and had power from any angle with his level of toughness and technique? With that physical stature? I shudder at what he would have done to the 1940s level of competition considering the beatings he was able to mete out to some quality HWs in a better time period for the sport (technique wise/athlete wise).

 

Louis abilities at least as impressive as Liston, at about the same size, and the 30s environment produced him.

Conversely, how many other fighters like Liston were there in Liston's day?

 

How many Louis'es? None, Louis is a special fighter and he had great ability, some of the sweetest KOs of all time, amazing combinations, tough and had technique as well. That being said, I think technique developed a lot in the gap years between the two and Liston was on the beginning of the precipice of technique in boxing for the HW glory times. It stands out to me when I watch the film.

I don't think Louis' style would have been as effective if he was fighting 20 years later. For me, the eye test tells me Joe's defense would be a huge problem in this matchup. His defense was a problem during his career against lesser fighters than Liston.

I think "same size" is not true, looking at them both, just look at Sonny's back and the size of their hands, their respective reaches. Louis in the second Schmeling fight right around 200 lbs, Liston at his peak was 212-215, neither carried fat. Liston would have significant size advantages in every metric except height. I just imagine that half hunch of Liston with his jackhammer jab pounding Louis' face easily and Louis not having the tools to create openings of his own vs. such a fighter, and having to brawl to get his shots in-- a dangerous game. Liston would only start opening up without defense when his opponent was dead to rights, so I don't see Louis sneaking it in. Just my .02

 

Louis was also younger than prime Liston in the fight you mentioned, IIRC. He filled out just like any other athlete. Louis fluctuated around the 200 pound mark, sometimes going around 207 or so. Liston was 210 to 215. Louis had an inch height; Sonny had more reach and a little weight. Not that much space between them, IMO.

Re: Louises, my question was about Listons. I don't know of many other fighters in Liston's time that were like Liston. Just as I don't know of many fighters in Louis's time who were like Louis. Both men were different from a lot of their competition.

 

84" reach vs 76", fist, chest, ankle, all larger for Liston, and he had a smaller waist and looked bigger in every muscle group. The tale of the tape is there, and I would pluck Louis from the second Schmeling fight to reflect his true peak, so even though he bulked up to 214 later, was that his best version?

I mean, the answer stands either way, if they weren't special we wouldn't be discussing them 60-80 years later. Generational fighters are labeled as such for a reason.

 

I don't think Louis's performance is viewed as having declined in the early 40s, which is when he got a few pounds bigger. The other measurements, yes -- it makes sense that a guy with slightly more weight but an inch less in height would have some larger measurements than Louis in other areas to compensate.

I agree that both were unusual fighters. That's why I think your comment that Louis didn't have to deal with somebody like Sonny -- true enough -- cuts both ways. Neither guy encountered somebody like the other in their primes.

 

I'm definitely not mad at someone thinking Louis would win, I just think Liston would win. I think Liston benefitted from a whole generation of boxers watching Joe Louis and improving boxing technique generally after as a result of the foundations Louis laid down. The voting right now is 7-7 so who knows. Fun discussion and thanks for sharing your knowledge with me.

 

That's an interesting question - whether the non-Louis guys from the 30s and 40s were better technicians than the non-Liston guys from the 50s.

 

Excellent discussion boys.